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Date: 06 Jun 2007 12:29:50
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?
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Can anybody explain the history behind this open letter to the FIDE President
from the author of Rybka? I have read it, but I get the sneaking suspicion
that there is more to it than what I read there.
http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Lie, n.:
A very poor substitute for the truth, but the only one
discovered to date.
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Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:59:10
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?
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Eric, please don't top-post. Here are some references:
http://www.xs4all.nl/%7ewijnands/nnq/nquote.html
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/mail-news-errors.html#quoting
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html
http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/quote.html
Eric Hallsworth wrote:
>It is interesting to note that Fritz doesn't appear in Guy's lists of
>recent major tournaments... why? - it doesn't play in them!?
I got the list from the Rybka letter and only listed the top three,
but I doubt that there are any unlisted tournaments where Fritz beat
Rybka. Nonetheless, I agree with the decision to include Fritz.
It's the one that the average person who doesn't follow chess thinks
of as having beat the best humans. Here are some events that got a
lot of press or Fritz:
In 1995 Fritz 3 beat a prototype version of Deep Blue.
In 2002 Deep Fritz drew against Vladimir Kramnik
In 2003 X3D Fritz drew against Garry Kasparov.
In 2005 a Fritz 9 prototype drew against Rustam Kasimdzhanov.
In 2006 Deep Fritz beat Vladimir Kramnik.
In 2006 when Veselin Topalov's manager implied that Vladimir
Kramnik was consulting a computer during bathroom breaks, his
"coincidence statistics" fingered Fritz 9 as the computer.
No matter what Fritz's current strength is, the above is enough
so that the average person watching the news wil wonder why if
it was excluded.
>ChessBase's [Deep] Junior and [Deep] Fritz contest pretty well all the
>big money matches, whether against Kasparov, Anand or Kramnik, or
>against each other, as now. The key word in that sentence is probably
>ChessBase
>
>Both Fritz and Junior have 'ducked' the forthcoming World Computer
>Championship, but are instead playing their private match.
...thus insuring a victory for a Chessbase product and insuring
that the stronger but non-Chessbase Rybka can't win. This would
be pretty standard slimeball keting practice, if not for the
involvement of FIDE.
>The Computer Rating Lists which appear on the Internet at various sites
>all show 3 or 4 different Rybka versions at the top - it's been top
>since Rybka first appeared some 18 months ago, and more recent versions
>have proved to be even stronger and have stayed at the top despite the
>efforts of new improved versions of one or two other programs trying to
>close the gap. Looking through all those lists it will be found that,
>behind Rybka1.1, Rybka2.1, Rybka2.2 and Rybka2.3, there are Zap
>Zanzibar, Hiarcs11.1 and LoopList12/13 which also show with higher
>ratings than either Fritz or Junior.
Such lists are, in my opinion, a better measure of strength.
They play a larger number of games, tend to use the same programs
that you or I could buy, and try to use identical hardware.
>Most folk will know I am NOT associated with Rybka, I am part of the
>Hiarcs team trying to catch the blighter, but Rybka is clearly the no.1!
Indeed. Chessbase is taking a big risk of having the press focus
in on them ducking a fight with the strongest contender rather than
on the Chessbase-products-only match.
(I have no connection to any chess program other than a Mattel
handheld product that never saw the light of day.)
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/ >
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Date: 07 Jun 2007 07:56:09
From: Eric Hallsworth
Subject: Re: Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?
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It is interesting to note that Fritz doesn't appear in Guy's lists of
recent major tournaments... why? - it doesn't play in them!?
ChessBase's [Deep] Junior and [Deep] Fritz contest pretty well all the
big money matches, whether against Kasparov, Anand or Kramnik, or
against each other, as now. The key word in that sentence is probably
ChessBase
Both Fritz and Junior have 'ducked' the forthcoming World Computer
Championship, but are instead playing their private match.
The Computer Rating Lists which appear on the Internet at various sites
all show 3 or 4 different Rybka versions at the top - it's been top
since Rybka first appeared some 18 months ago, and more recent versions
have proved to be even stronger and have stayed at the top despite the
efforts of new improved versions of one or two other programs trying to
close the gap. Looking through all those lists it will be found that,
behind Rybka1.1, Rybka2.1, Rybka2.2 and Rybka2.3, there are Zap
Zanzibar, Hiarcs11.1 and LoopList12/13 which also show with higher
ratings than either Fritz or Junior.
Most folk will know I am NOT associated with Rybka, I am part of the
Hiarcs team trying to catch the blighter, but Rybka is clearly the no.1!
Cheers - Eric
In article <[email protected] >, Guy Macon
<http@?.guymacon.com/ > writes
>
>
>
>Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
>>
>>Can anybody explain the history behind this open letter to
>>the FIDE President from the author of Rybka? I have read
>>it, but I get the sneaking suspicion that there is more to
>>it than what I read there.
>>
>>http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm
>
>Let's examine these claims.
>
>FIDE says:
>"Players: Deep Junior vs. Deep Fritz
>The reigning World Computer Champion vs.
>The winner against the world human champion."
>
>Source:
>http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1328
>http://www.fide.com/news/download/ComputerMatch07.pdf
>
>Rybkachess says:
>
>"[Rybka] has competed in all eight major international
>tournaments held since her first release and taken
>clear (unshared) first place in seven of them."
>
>and
>
>"It's no wonder that Rybka is generally considered the
>undisputed strongest chess program in the world."
>
>Source:
>http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm
>
>So, is it really fair to call Deep Junior the reigning
>World Computer Champion? or to call Rybka the "undisputed
>strongest chess program in the world?"
>
>Wikipedia says this:
>
>Rybka is a computer chess engine by International Master
>Vasik Rajlich. As of February 2007, Rybka is top-rated
>in the CCRL, CEGT, SSDF, SCCT, and CSS rating lists and
>has won many official Computer Chess Tournaments
>although it has yet to win the World Computer-Chess
>Championship.
>
>Source:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rybka
>
>Let's look at the records of the various tournaments
>listed by Rybka:
>
>9th CCT 2007 - 7 rounds
>Rybka 6.0
>Junior 4.5
>Shredder Not There
>
>7th CSVN 2007 - 9 rounds
>Rybka 9
>Junior Not There
>Shredder Not There
>
>14th WCCC 2006 - 9 rounds
>Junior 9.0
>Shredder 8.5
>Rybka 8.5
>
>6th CSVN 2006 - 9 rounds
>Rybka 8.5
>Deep Shredder 6.5
>Junior Not There
>
>8th CCT 2006 - 9 rounds
>Rybka 8.0
>Junior 6.5
>Shredder Not There
>
>16th IPCCC 2006 - 7 rounds
>Rybka 6.5
>Shredder 6.0
>Junior Not There
>
>26th Dutch Championship 2006 - 9 rounds
>Rybka 9
>Shredder Not There
>Junior Not There
>
>15th IPCCC 2005 - 7 rounds
>Rybka 5.5
>Shredder 4.5
>Junior Not There
>
>So, Rybka beat shredder in three tournaments and
>tied to shredder in one tournament. Rybka akso beat
>Junior in two tournaments and lost to Junior in one
>tournament. But Rybka didn't win the tournament
>that most people think of as the championship. It's
>pretty clear that Rybka is the strongest, and that
>the "Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge" excluded the
>strongest contender. They could have easily made it
>a three-way match and billed it as "The winner of the
>World Computer-Chess Championship vs. the winner against
>the world human champion vs. the highest rated computer
>chess program." Or they could have arranged qualifying
>matches.
>
>It looks like the ball is in FIDE's court now. If they
>refuse to play their champion against Rybka when Rybka is
>giving up a handicap of one point plus draw odds, it will
>be pretty clear that they think Rybka is the stronger
>program.
>
>
>Guy Macon
><http://www.guymacon.com/>
>
>
--
With best wishes from Eric Hallsworth
45 Stretham Road, Wilburton, Cambs CB6 3RX, England
Publisher of Selective Search, the UK's only Computer Chess Magazine, est. 1985.
Computer Chess web pages+photos... http://www.elhchess.demon.co.uk
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 22:46:51
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?
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Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
>
>Can anybody explain the history behind this open letter to
>the FIDE President from the author of Rybka? I have read
>it, but I get the sneaking suspicion that there is more to
>it than what I read there.
>
>http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm
Let's examine these claims.
FIDE says:
"Players: Deep Junior vs. Deep Fritz
The reigning World Computer Champion vs.
The winner against the world human champion."
Source:
http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1328
http://www.fide.com/news/download/ComputerMatch07.pdf
Rybkachess says:
"[Rybka] has competed in all eight major international
tournaments held since her first release and taken
clear (unshared) first place in seven of them."
and
"It's no wonder that Rybka is generally considered the
undisputed strongest chess program in the world."
Source:
http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm
So, is it really fair to call Deep Junior the reigning
World Computer Champion? or to call Rybka the "undisputed
strongest chess program in the world?"
Wikipedia says this:
Rybka is a computer chess engine by International Master
Vasik Rajlich. As of February 2007, Rybka is top-rated
in the CCRL, CEGT, SSDF, SCCT, and CSS rating lists and
has won many official Computer Chess Tournaments
although it has yet to win the World Computer-Chess
Championship.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rybka
Let's look at the records of the various tournaments
listed by Rybka:
9th CCT 2007 - 7 rounds
Rybka 6.0
Junior 4.5
Shredder Not There
7th CSVN 2007 - 9 rounds
Rybka 9
Junior Not There
Shredder Not There
14th WCCC 2006 - 9 rounds
Junior 9.0
Shredder 8.5
Rybka 8.5
6th CSVN 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 8.5
Deep Shredder 6.5
Junior Not There
8th CCT 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 8.0
Junior 6.5
Shredder Not There
16th IPCCC 2006 - 7 rounds
Rybka 6.5
Shredder 6.0
Junior Not There
26th Dutch Championship 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 9
Shredder Not There
Junior Not There
15th IPCCC 2005 - 7 rounds
Rybka 5.5
Shredder 4.5
Junior Not There
So, Rybka beat shredder in three tournaments and
tied to shredder in one tournament. Rybka akso beat
Junior in two tournaments and lost to Junior in one
tournament. But Rybka didn't win the tournament
that most people think of as the championship. It's
pretty clear that Rybka is the strongest, and that
the "Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge" excluded the
strongest contender. They could have easily made it
a three-way match and billed it as "The winner of the
World Computer-Chess Championship vs. the winner against
the world human champion vs. the highest rated computer
chess program." Or they could have arranged qualifying
matches.
It looks like the ball is in FIDE's court now. If they
refuse to play their champion against Rybka when Rybka is
giving up a handicap of one point plus draw odds, it will
be pretty clear that they think Rybka is the stronger
program.
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/ >
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Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:53:32
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?
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Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote:
> It looks like the ball is in FIDE's court now. If they refuse to
> play their champion against Rybka when Rybka is giving up a handicap
> of one point plus draw odds, it will be pretty clear that they think
> Rybka is the stronger program.
That's not clear at all! For example, if I challenged Kramnik to a
match with those odds, you wouldn't say that Kramnik obviously
believed me to be the stronger player if he declined.
There are all kinds of reasons that FIDE might not want to include
Rybka. I'm not sure any of them is valid, mind you.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Generic Aluminium Atlas (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a map of the world that's
really light but it's just like all
the others!
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Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:06:46
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?
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David Richerby wrote:
>Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
>
>> It looks like the ball is in FIDE's court now. If they refuse to
>> play their champion against Rybka when Rybka is giving up a handicap
>> of one point plus draw odds, it will be pretty clear that they think
>> Rybka is the stronger program.
>
>That's not clear at all! For example, if I challenged Kramnik to a
>match with those odds, you wouldn't say that Kramnik obviously
>believed me to be the stronger player if he declined.
It would certainly suggest that Kramnik is afraid of you. The
obvious reply from Kramnik would be to ask you to up the stakes
to a million dollars or more.
--
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/ >
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 14:03:22
From: JohnnyT
Subject: Re: Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?
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Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
> Can anybody explain the history behind this open letter to the FIDE President
> from the author of Rybka? I have read it, but I get the sneaking suspicion
> that there is more to it than what I read there.
>
> http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm
>
It is in response to the Fritz/Junior match that is sanctioned by Fide
currently going on at the candidates, and the fact that Fritz and Junior
are ducking Rybka in other computer chess championships where they
choose to play or not.
The result of this keting is making it look like the Chessbase
products are the superior product, yet there is very good reason to
believe that it is not true.
But I don't like the bet nature. I think Vas should just put up the money.
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