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Date: 16 Sep 2008 23:58:25
From: John Salerno
Subject: A game to look at, if you're interested
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Just thought I'd post this since I actually won this time! :) Plus, I
feel like I made pretty good moves the whole way through. Granted, Black
brought his queen out way too early and made it somewhat easy for me,
but since this was the first time I've experienced that, it was nice to
feel like I did it right.
But please, feel free to poke holes in my game! Any better moves that
could have been made, etc. I realize that I could have checkmated at the
end with Qh8#, but to be honest I had already noticed the other way (the
way I actually did it) before Black moved his knight, so I went with
that without even looking for other options. Besides, I think he only
moved the knight to end the game quicker, there was nothing forced about
that move.
;Title: Yahoo! Chess Game
;White: johnjsal
;Black: rma1412
;Date: Wed Sep 17 03:38:37 GMT 2008
1. e2-e4 e7-e5
2. g1-f3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 d8xd5
4. b1-c3 d5-d6
5. c3-b5 d6-c5
6. d2-d4 e5xd4
7. f3xd4 b8-c6
8. c1-e3 c6xd4
9. c2-c3 c5-e5
10. c3xd4 e5-d5
11. a1-c1 f8-b4+
12. e3-d2 b4xd2+
13. d1xd2 d5xa2
14. f1-c4 a2-a4
15. o-o e8-e7
16. f1-e1+ c8-e6
17. b5xc7 a8-c8
18. c7xe6 c8xc4
19. e6-c5+ e7-f8
20. c5xa4 c4xa4
21. d2-e2 g7-g6
22. c1-c7 a4xd4
23. e2-e5 d4-b4
24. e5xh8 b4xb2
25. h8xh7 g8-f6
26. c7-c8+ f6-e8
27. c8xe8++
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Date: 17 Sep 2008 14:11:30
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Sep 16, 11:58=A0pm, John Salerno <[email protected] > wrote:
> Just thought I'd post this since I actually won this time! :) Plus, I
> feel like I made pretty good moves the whole way through. Granted, Black
> brought his queen out way too early and made it somewhat easy for me,
> but since this was the first time I've experienced that, it was nice to
> feel like I did it right.
>
> But please, feel free to poke holes in my game! Any better moves that
> could have been made, etc. I realize that I could have checkmated at the
> end with Qh8#, but to be honest I had already noticed the other way (the
> way I actually did it) before Black moved his knight, so I went with
> that without even looking for other options. Besides, I think he only
> moved the knight to end the game quicker, there was nothing forced about
> that move.
>
> ;Title: Yahoo! Chess Game
> ;White: johnjsal
> ;Black: rma1412
> ;Date: Wed Sep 17 03:38:37 GMT 2008
>
> 1. e2-e4 e7-e5
> 2. g1-f3 d7-d5
This is called the Queen's pawn counter gambit. I shows up
about once a generation in high-level chess, and the person
who plays it is consoled for his loss by getting the game
in anthologies. When he had to face it, Tal commented:
"My first task was to remember the name of this opening, I
confess I failed to do so".
His second task was to win the game, which he proceeded to
do rather briskly.
Keres as a young correspondence player tried this opening. There is
an example in Reinfeld's collection of Keres' games.
Keres was able to draw a highly entertaining tactical game.
William Hyde
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Date: 20 Sep 2008 00:03:51
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Sep 19, 11:45=A0am, Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote:
> Makes sense to me. =A0I let Rybka crank for half an hour on the initial
> position and, as you say, it gave White about a third of a Pawn edge.
>
> I've used the opening a few times over the years and done OK with it,
> and got nothing much out of the opening when I faced it.
Okay, I continued my Rybka analysis to
see what happens later on, and I was a
bit disappointed to find that against herself
(i.e. Rybka-perfect play), the result is that
White wins and holds onto an extra pawn.
This is one of the biggest weaknesses
of this program-- it refuses to score the
win of a pawn as worth a pawn (i.e. +1),
always crediting the opponent for the
open lines that invariably result. For
instance, if you hang a pawn you get a
half-open file with which to occupy your
Rook. Or if you remove White's Queen
in the starting position, the White King
suddenly becomes more mobile-- now
having the possibility to move to d1! It
is, as Dr. IMnes might say, "the height
of dumth" to refuse to credit the win of
a pawn like this, but that is just how the
world's strongest chess player does
things.
In summary, the "best line" with ...e4
and Qe2 led to a one-pawn advantage
for White. (Now I know how to play
against this garbage... .)
-- help bot
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Date: 19 Sep 2008 14:23:37
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Sep 19, 4:24=A0pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 5:11=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > 1. e2-e4 e7-e5
> > > 2. g1-f3 d7-d5
>
> > This is called the Queen's pawn counter gambit.
>
> =A0 Isn't the usual continuation after 3.exd5 to play 3...e4 rather than
> 3...Qxd5?
Yes, as far as I know. Tal doesn't mention the recapture.
Besides 3...Qxd5 being inferior, it doesn't even qualify
> then as a gambit, strictly speaking, since no pawn is sacrificed.
After 4 Nc3 Qa5 think of it as a version of the centre counter
with 4 Nf3 being met by the rather ambitious 4 ..... e5.
>
=A0When he had to face it, Tal commented:
>
> > "My first task was to remember the name of =A0this opening, I
> > confess I failed to do so".
>
> > His second =A0task was to win the game, which he proceeded to
> > do rather briskly.
>
> =A0 Would that be against Lutikov, Tallin 1964?
That was the game. It can be found in the Cadogan collection
(if you have a copy that hasn't disintegrated). As far as I
can tell from Tal's notes Lutikov was lost after his seventh
move. However, he puts some blame on Lutikov's fourth move:
3 .... e4
4 Qe2 f5
saying that 4 ... Nf6 is more in the spirit of the opening.
William Hyde
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Date: 19 Sep 2008 13:24:10
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Sep 17, 5:11=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Sep 16, 11:58=A0pm, John Salerno <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Just thought I'd post this since I actually won this time! :) Plus, I
> > feel like I made pretty good moves the whole way through. Granted, Blac=
k
> > brought his queen out way too early and made it somewhat easy for me,
> > but since this was the first time I've experienced that, it was nice to
> > feel like I did it right.
>
> > But please, feel free to poke holes in my game! Any better moves that
> > could have been made, etc. I realize that I could have checkmated at th=
e
> > end with Qh8#, but to be honest I had already noticed the other way (th=
e
> > way I actually did it) before Black moved his knight, so I went with
> > that without even looking for other options. Besides, I think he only
> > moved the knight to end the game quicker, there was nothing forced abou=
t
> > that move.
>
> > ;Title: Yahoo! Chess Game
> > ;White: johnjsal
> > ;Black: rma1412
> > ;Date: Wed Sep 17 03:38:37 GMT 2008
>
> > 1. e2-e4 e7-e5
> > 2. g1-f3 d7-d5
>
> This is called the Queen's pawn counter gambit.
Isn't the usual continuation after 3.exd5 to play 3...e4 rather than
3...Qxd5? Besides 3...Qxd5 being inferior, it doesn't even qualify
then as a gambit, strictly speaking, since no pawn is sacrificed.
> =A0I shows up
> about once a generation in high-level chess, and the person
> who plays it is consoled for his loss by getting the game
> in anthologies. =A0When he had to face it, Tal commented:
>
> "My first task was to remember the name of =A0this opening, I
> confess I failed to do so".
>
> His second =A0task was to win the game, which he proceeded to
> do rather briskly.
Would that be against Lutikov, Tallin 1964?
> Keres as a young correspondence player tried this opening. =A0There is
> an example in Reinfeld's collection of Keres' games.
> Keres was able to draw a highly entertaining tactical game.
Indeed an interesting, complicated game. And not one likely to be in
today's databases, so I'll give it here:
Feilitsch-Keres, correspondence 1934-35: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nxe5
dxe4 4. Bc4 Qg5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7
6. d4 Qxg2 7. Rf1 Bh3 8. Bc4 Nf6 9. Bf4 Nbd7 10. Qd2 Nb6 11. Be2 Nbd5
12. Nc3 Nxf4 13. Qxf4 Be6 14. h4 Rg8 15. Nc4 Kd8 16. O-O-O Bxc4 17.
Bxc4 Bd6 18. Qg5 Qf3 19. Qb5 c6 20. Qxb7 Rb8 21. Qxa7 Re8 22. d5 c5
23. Nb5 Nd7 24. Qa6 Rb6 25. Qa5 Ke7 26. Nxd6 Kxd6 27. Bb5 Reb8 28. a4
Ne5 29. Qe1 Ra8 30. b3 Rxb5 31. axb5 Ra1+ 32. Kd2 Rxd1+ 33. Qxd1 Qf4+
34. Kc3 Qf6 35. Kd2 draw
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Date: 18 Sep 2008 13:42:30
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Sep 17, 8:50=A0pm, Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:11:30 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Sep 16, 11:58=A0pm, John Salerno <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> 1. e2-e4 e7-e5
> >> 2. g1-f3 d7-d5
> >This is called the Queen's pawn counter gambit.
>
> More recently, it is often called the "Elephant Gambit" and it has its
> devotees, =A0much as does the Blackmar-Diemer.
I would regard the BDG as far more sound, or at least
closer to being so. Still, as Tartakover once said
"Any opening is good enough to play, if its reputation
is bad enough".
You can certainly get into trouble playing against it,
if your opponent knows the lines and you don't. I once
played a series of informal games against a slightly
stronger player who used this line against me. I certainly
lost the opening in the first five games, and I probably
lost most of those games, too (we were playing for $5
a game, about 1% of my monthly income at the time, so
I was taking this seriously). I caught up to even over
the next ten games, partly because I now knew some
of the tricks, but just possibly my opponent was getting
more tired than I was.
William Hyde
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Date: 17 Sep 2008 20:18:16
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Sep 17, 8:50=A0pm, Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote:
> >> 1. e2-e4 e7-e5
> >> 2. g1-f3 d7-d5
> >This is called the Queen's pawn counter gambit.
> More recently, it is often called the "Elephant Gambit" and it has its
> devotees, =A0much as does the Blackmar-Diemer.
Generally speaking, when a move is unsound,
Rybka's position score will take a flying leap,
and one likely "refutation" will quickly appear.
But this move seems playable (not having
any handy openings reference work to consult
for the purported refutation), just looking at the
results of a book-less Rybka analysis:
At zero seconds, my old machine likes Nxe5.
Still under a second, it switched to preferring
3. exd5 Qxd5.
At around a second, Rybka decided to gambit
a pawn with 3. ed Nf6. (Wow.)
But at every level thereafter, looking quite
deeply ahead, she much prefers the line:
3. ed e4
4. Qe2 Nf6
5. d3
...and Black's disadvantage seems to be no
greater than in some of the popular though
clearly inferior openings such as the French
Defense, for instance-- roughly a third of a
pawn.
The pronouncements of "near certain death"
earlier in this thread therefore seem unwar-
ranted.
-- help bot
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Date: 19 Sep 2008 08:45:45
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:18:16 -0700 (PDT), help bot
<[email protected] > wrote:
>On Sep 17, 8:50�pm, Mike Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> 1. e2-e4 e7-e5
>> >> 2. g1-f3 d7-d5
>> >This is called the Queen's pawn counter gambit.
>> More recently, it is often called the "Elephant Gambit" and it has its
>> devotees, �much as does the Blackmar-Diemer.
> Generally speaking, when a move is unsound,
>Rybka's position score will take a flying leap,
>and one likely "refutation" will quickly appear.
> But this move seems playable
> ...and Black's disadvantage seems to be no
>greater than in some of the popular though
>clearly inferior openings such as the French
>Defense, for instance-- roughly a third of a
>pawn.
> The pronouncements of "near certain death"
>earlier in this thread therefore seem unwar-
>ranted.
Makes sense to me. I let Rybka crank for half an hour on the initial
position and, as you say, it gave White about a third of a Pawn edge.
I've used the opening a few times over the years and done OK with it,
and got nothing much out of the opening when I faced it.
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Date: 17 Sep 2008 17:50:28
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:11:30 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
<[email protected] > wrote:
>On Sep 16, 11:58�pm, John Salerno <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 1. e2-e4 e7-e5
>> 2. g1-f3 d7-d5
>This is called the Queen's pawn counter gambit.
More recently, it is often called the "Elephant Gambit" and it has its
devotees, much as does the Blackmar-Diemer.
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Date: 16 Sep 2008 22:08:45
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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On Sep 16, 11:58=A0pm, John Salerno <[email protected] > wrote:
> ;Title: Yahoo! Chess Game
> ;White: johnjsal
> ;Black: rma1412
> ;Date: Wed Sep 17 03:38:37 GMT 2008
>
> 1. e2-e4 e7-e5
> 2. g1-f3 d7-d5
> 3. e4xd5 d8xd5
Black is treading very dangerous waters here,
as while his Queen is hopping about, White can
gain a *huge* lead in development.
> 4. b1-c3 d5-d6
> 5. c3-b5 d6-c5
> 6. d2-d4 e5xd4
> 7. f3xd4 b8-c6
This blunder should lose the game: 8. Nxc7+
is ugly.
> 8. c1-e3 c6xd4
> 9. c2-c3 c5-e5
> 10. c3xd4 e5-d5
Once again, Black overlooks a crushing
Knight-fork at c7 (but then, so does White).
> 11. a1-c1 f8-b4+
> 12. e3-d2 b4xd2+
> 13. d1xd2 d5xa2
No, no, no! Snatching pawns in the opening
like this is only for trained professionals. Don't
try it at home, kids. Black is trying to play the
whole game using just one piece-- his Queen.
> 14. f1-c4 a2-a4
> 15. o-o
15. b3! would have trapped the silly
Queen.
> ... e8-e7
"Hiding" in plain sight? Try ...Kf8, cowering
behind some pawns instead.
> 16. f1-e1+ c8-e6
> 17. b5xc7 a8-c8
> 18. c7xe6 c8xc4
> 19. e6-c5+ e7-f8
> 20. c5xa4
Wrong way. Remember, it is the big guy
you're after-- not his nagging wife, the Queen!
Try 20. Rxc4! (the Queen *must* prevent the
move Nd7++, so where is she going now?).
> ...c4xa4
Hmm--maybe the King is intended as a
"sacrifice" to the goddess of chess?
> 21. d2-e2
Better was, I think, 21. Rc8++, though it
is largely a matter of style. ; >D
> ...g7-g6
> 22. c1-c7 a4xd4
> 23. e2-e5 d4-b4
> 24. e5xh8 b4xb2
> 25. h8xh7 g8-f6
> 26. c7-c8+ f6-e8
> 27. c8xe8++
What I like about this game is that it reminds
me of so many I've played at GetClub, where
tactics take over, tossing book play to the
wind. It's all about who is more alert, more
focused, and more skilled at tactics.
-- help bot
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Date: 17 Sep 2008 23:35:29
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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> What I like about this game is that it reminds
> me of so many I've played at GetClub, where
> tactics take over, tossing book play to the
> wind. =A0It's all about who is more alert, more
> focused, and more skilled at tactics.
What is your username at GetClub? How many games you have won at
GetClub?
Are you able to beat the Baby & Beginner Levels?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 17 Sep 2008 12:20:54
From: John Salerno
Subject: Re: A game to look at, if you're interested
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"help bot" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:fa16db9f-661f-46a0-9cae-ab695cce22cc@s20g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 16, 11:58 pm, John Salerno <[email protected] > wrote:
---
What I like about this game is that it reminds
me of so many I've played at GetClub, where
tactics take over, tossing book play to the
wind. It's all about who is more alert, more
focused, and more skilled at tactics.
---
I agree. I'm reading about tactics right now, but regardless I find them the
most interesting and fun aspect of chess. Now, I'll freely admit I missed
some chances and Black made some really bad moves, but still, it did feel
like a much more fun game than normal, where the tactics were just begging
to be found. :)
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