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Main
Date: 18 May 2008 07:41:40
From: Sandra Mohammed
Subject: Can White win this position?
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8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37
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Date: 27 May 2008 16:44:03
From: Mapleleaf
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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Agree with the comments that a5 will be a big move by black. Had it not been for this move white could try g4 (perhaps followed by an eventual e4) and try to fix the f and h pawns and fight for control of f5 (ie. by fighting to pressure f6 square). One advantage of this winning plan for white is that it would also make it difficult for black's king to enter the centre via the f6. (ie. after he pushes his pawn to f5) The problem of course is 37. g4 a5! And due to activation of rook (and threat to win a pawn) the battle for the king side is completely side tracked. There are three ways to counter the a5 "threat". As has been mentioned 37.a3 is one of them. The other two are 37.Rb6 and 37.Rc5...the idea of those moves being that as soon as black pushes the a6 pawn white soon captures b5. The problem with both 37.a3 and 37.Rb6 is black can just play f5 himself and now the idea of exploiting k side weaknesses for white (with lets say g4 or e4) become very difficult. The problem with 37.Rc5 is now black can centralize with Rd7 as white no longer threatens the a6 pawn. Of the three candidate moves I've talked about 37.a3 seems to be the best and indeed Rybka gives a line where white wins a pawn after: a3 f5 Rc5 Kf6 a4 bxa4 Ra5 Re7 Rxa6 Kg7 Rxa4 The problem is that black now plays Re4! and because of the pin its hard to see how white now makes progress. I think an eventual check on blacks king (eg. after an eventual f6 Ra7+) could get the pawn to fifth rank..but hard to see how it advances further. Plus black doesnt need to allow an opportunity like that since his rook has at least two squares to avoid zug and maintain the pin... e4 and c4. So I think the position is probably a draw, but, black has to defend well, and may even be a pawn down in the process Mapleleaf from FICS Sandra Mohammed wrote: > 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37
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Date: 27 May 2008 15:32:27
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 27, 4:44 pm, Mapleleaf <[email protected] > wrote: > The problem of course is 37. g4 a5! The move ...a5 is very obvious, not really deserving of any exclamations, unless found by a weak player. > Of the three candidate moves I've talked about 37.a3 seems to be the > best and indeed Rybka gives a line where white wins a pawn after: It should be noted that even though Rybka is the strongest chess program in the world, the author himself has admitted that he put very little into its endgame, as he felt the results would not be sufficiently affected to justify the effort. In sum, it is very likely that some other programs are better in this phase of the game, or even some humans. In fact, in the recent odds match between Rybka and Roman Dzindzichashvili, the program failed in the endgame in some fairly obvious (to humans) ways. One of those failures was in a Rook ending where there were pawns on both sides of the board, as here. -- help bot
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Date: 19 May 2008 20:37:27
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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Sandra Mohammed <[email protected] > wrote: > 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 Hi, Jason! Dave. -- David Richerby Perforated Artificial Tool (TM): it's www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a hammer that's made of plastic but it's full of holes!
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Date: 18 May 2008 15:08:06
From:
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 18, 3:41=A0am, "Sandra Mohammed" <[email protected] > wrote: > 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 I let Fritz8 dwell on this for about half an hour. It evaluates the position at about +1.25 to +1.50 in White's favor (i.e. it considers White to be ahead by the equivalent of 1.25 to 1.5 pawns). However, it sees no clear path to a definite win. Black's rook can become active if White is not careful, e.g. 1.Kf3 f5 2.Kf4 Re7!. And while Black's rook is tied down right now to defense of the a-pawn, it looks like White's rook can't both keep pressure on the a-pawn and accomplish anything else that's meaningful. Still, I'd much rather play White than Black here. In general terms, a good plan might be to keep Black as cooped up as possible. Specific moves toward this end would start with 1.Kf3, followed by either advance of the e-pawn, or if 1...f5, then 2.h4 so that if 2...f6 intending 3...Kg6, White can keep the king penned up with 3.h5!.
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Date: 19 May 2008 22:54:32
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 19, 10:29 pm, SBD <[email protected] > wrote: > > Not so fast there, fella. Fritz8 is a wee tad > > better in the endgame than anybody who posts > > here in rgc. > > Are you sure of that? Let me put it another way: I am not aware of any truly strong players who post here, whereas Fritz8 is, I suspect, 2500+ in the endgame. Granted, it may not be a great strategist, but even in the endgame there are sufficient tactics for computers to strut their stuff; humans, as we all know, are "suboptimal move" choosers. Maybe, there are a few /lurkers/ here who can play strong chess, but those cowards don't count. ; >D -- help bot
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Date: 19 May 2008 22:45:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 19, 10:28 pm, SBD <[email protected] > wrote: > > I sure am glad I was not a member of that > > particular old chess club; how boring, to > > analyze "to death" such a dull position! > > Dull? There are no dull positions, only dull players. Nonsense. Many positions offer precious little to work with; thus, the hyper-aggressive player is often described by pundits as attempting a "more enterprising" line, to escape the drudgery. In one sense, Rook endings can be the epitome of this dullness, as so many of them ultimately lead to draws-- and not always in exciting ways. This particular ending has both sides with an equal number of pawns, none of which are passed, and even the two Kings are on the very same side of the board; that's dull. If you really want to obsess over a chess position, then why not find something with a bit more action? I could show you innumerable such endings-- including some which have been discussed at some length here in rgc. Looking back over this thread one will note (or go into denial of) the general lack of interest, even by those very few who posted any replies at all. In fact, I think it may have been SBD himself who refused to devote any time to real chess analysis, on account of what he described as the position "not being worth it", or something to that effect. Others tossed out comments about "winning a pawn", but not one showed how it was to be done. My guess is that Fritz or whatever advanced a pawn: ...f5, which later fell in *its* analysis; obviously, not a forced variation. One of the things I have learned from playing at GetClub is that there are lots and lots of dull positions... . -- help bot
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Date: 19 May 2008 19:29:27
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 19, 4:21 pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote: > Not so fast there, fella. Fritz8 is a wee tad > better in the endgame than anybody who posts > here in rgc. Are you sure of that?
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Date: 19 May 2008 19:28:28
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 19, 4:21 pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote: > > I sure am glad I was not a member of that > particular old chess club; how boring, to > analyze "to death" such a dull position! Dull? There are no dull positions, only dull players.
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Date: 19 May 2008 14:21:25
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 19, 9:40 am, SBD <[email protected] > wrote: > As TK noted, I was just giving a brief assessment as no one had > answered. It is quite possible that one of the main reasons "no one" had answered is the use of Forsoothe notation. Aye, had the query been posted in a more common language, a wider variety of folks would have been able to take a shot. I passed over the post a couple of times, declining to respond because I was not sure if I could even "read" the notation correctly. > I am not sure that computers don't overrate the doubled pawns here. > The only problem with the doubled pawns in my opinion is the isolation > of the h-pawn, which could become problematic. A weak player would > shove pawns here and playing h5 too quickly might be fatal. As White, a weak player might pursue the weak h-pawn with his Rook, allowing Black to activate his own. > It is the kind of position in the old days of chess clubs that we > would often analyze to death, and with great relish. Today, not to > criticize, just an observation, people too quickly turn on Fritz...... Not so fast there, fella. Fritz8 is a wee tad better in the endgame than anybody who posts here in rgc. The problem lies in deciding if say, a position score of +1.13 means "White barely wins" or means "White draws with more room for error than Black". In essence, the program is useful for handling tactical problems with great accuracy, while strategic assessments are then less likely to completely miss the boat. I sure am glad I was not a member of that particular old chess club; how boring, to analyze "to death" such a dull position! Why not instead attempt to analyze the Fried Liver Attack or the Wilkes Barre? At my chess club, we discovered a way to refute the entire King's Gambit... but some guy from Brooklyn stole our idea. (No biggie, since we also have refuted the Ruy Lopez, the Queen's Gambit, and of course, the Caro Kan.) -- help bot
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Date: 19 May 2008 12:53:51
From:
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 19, 1:49=A0pm, [email protected] (Andy Walker) wrote: > In article <[email protected]= m >, > > =A0<[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 > >> [...] > >> > =A0 Black's rook can become active if White is not careful, e.g. 1.Kf= 3 > >> >f5 2.Kf4 Re7!. > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01 Kf3 is not careful enough; =A01 ... a5 activates the r= ook. > > =A0True, but at the cost of a pawn: 2.a3! (much better than 2.Rxb5?! > >axb4 3.Rxb4 Rxa2) 2...axb4 3.axb4 and after almost any black move, > >4.Rxb5. [...] > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I think you have the rook on the wrong square! =A0It's on = c6 > in the original, so 1 Rb6 is the alternative to 1 a3 to prevent > 1 ... a5, but 1 a3 keeps the R more active. Oh, bloody hell, you're right. I hate Forsyth notation. > =A01 Kf3? a5 2 a3? axb4 > 3 axb4 Ra4 and it's Black playing for the win. =A0[2 Rb6 axb4 3 Rxb5 > Rxa2 is a safe draw.] > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 White has no need to hurry; =A0as long as his pawns are ke= pt > protected, there is no counterplay, and no way for Black to swap > off pawns [... h5 is just another weakness]. =A0As SBD comments, > White seems to win a pawn at some stage; =A0whether that's enough to > win the game is another matter, but it looks very possible, given > Black's enforced passivity. =A0But since "all R&P endings are drawn", > we would need to look in depth at some concrete lines. > > -- > Andy Walker > Nottingham
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Date: 19 May 2008 12:26:48
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 19, 9:40 am, SBD <[email protected] > wrote: > As TK noted, I was just giving a brief assessment as no one had > answered. I didn't mean to offend anyone, but hey, if I offended some > "Illinois Nazi," to quote Belushi, I really don't care. It looked more like a troll posting, and if so, he got a nibble or two. > But Walker's answer is better. I really doubt there is " a win" here > so long as black is careful in the conversion - at some point white > will probably win a pawn but not the game. > > I am not sure that computers don't overrate the doubled pawns here. > The only problem with the doubled pawns in my opinion is the isolation > of the h-pawn, which could become problematic. A weak player would > shove pawns here and playing h5 too quickly might be fatal. > > It is the kind of position in the old days of chess clubs that we > would often analyze to death, and with great relish. Today, not to > criticize, just an observation, people too quickly turn on Fritz...... Mr. Kingston's problem is not that he too quickly turns to Fritz; it is that he quite often "analyzes" the *wrong position*. As we have seen so many times before, TK just can't quite get a handle on things. Obviously, Fritz8 would not have made this type of careless error-- but TK would (and did). Mr. Walker was correct. By keeping Black's Rook tied down to defense, White can bring his King forward, with potentially deadly consequences. But one small slip by White and we are looking at an "all Rook endings are drawn" scenario. -- help bot
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Date: 19 May 2008 11:00:10
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 19, 12:49 pm, [email protected] (Andy Walker) wrote: > White has no need to hurry; as long as his pawns are kept > protected, there is no counterplay, and no way for Black to swap > off pawns [... h5 is just another weakness]. As SBD comments, > White seems to win a pawn at some stage; whether that's enough to > win the game is another matter, but it looks very possible, given > Black's enforced passivity. But since "all R&P endings are drawn", > we would need to look in depth at some concrete lines. Another good observation but I would note that the idea is to lose a pawn at the precise time when activity can be gained for it. You are correct, simply losing a pawn and remaining passive will lose. But I've had games where I gave up as many as two pawns for rook activity and was able to draw. If white's K-side pawns were connected, I might be more pessimistic. Another thing the author of the original post could do - and I didn't mention it before as it seems obvious - is to play several games against another person or the computer and see if the position can be saved. That makes the losing moves a bit more evident, giving you some idea whether there is a win. And "no need to hurry" is good advice for 99% of all superior endings!
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Date: 19 May 2008 07:10:14
From:
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 18, 7:59=A0pm, [email protected] (Andy Walker) wrote: > In article <[email protected].= com >, > > =A0<[email protected]> wrote: > >On May 18, 3:41^ am, "Sandra Mohammed" > ><[email protected]> wrote: > >> 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 > [...] > > =A0Black's rook can become active if White is not careful, e.g. 1.Kf3 > >f5 2.Kf4 Re7!. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 1 Kf3 is not careful enough; =A01 ... a5 activates the roo= k. True, but at the cost of a pawn: 2.a3! (much better than 2.Rxb5?! axb4 3.Rxb4 Rxa2) 2...axb4 3.axb4 and after almost any black move, 4.Rxb5. Giving White a passed queenside pawn seems like a bad idea. Black has much better drawing chances if all the pawns are on the same wing, so I would think he'd want either to liquidate the queenside pawns entirely, or leave it status quo on there. > I think I would play 1 a3, so that 1 ... a5 allows 2 Rb6 winning > the b-pawn. =A0 As I've just shown, 1. a3 need not be played immediately; White can and should wait for ...a6-a5 first, IMO. > It's not easy for Black; =A0a passive defence allows > White to advance K and pawns, winning the f-pawn, while a K advance > probably just gets driven back. =A0Whether White wins with best play > would take more analysis than I currently feel the position is > worth, but in a real game I would certainly be playing on .... Agreed. Even with sub-optimal play, White has little chance of losing this, IMO.
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Date: 19 May 2008 17:49:57
From: Andy Walker
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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In article <[email protected] >, <[email protected] > wrote: >> >> 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 >> [...] >> > Black's rook can become active if White is not careful, e.g. 1.Kf3 >> >f5 2.Kf4 Re7!. >> 1 Kf3 is not careful enough; 1 ... a5 activates the rook. > True, but at the cost of a pawn: 2.a3! (much better than 2.Rxb5?! >axb4 3.Rxb4 Rxa2) 2...axb4 3.axb4 and after almost any black move, >4.Rxb5. [...] I think you have the rook on the wrong square! It's on c6 in the original, so 1 Rb6 is the alternative to 1 a3 to prevent 1 ... a5, but 1 a3 keeps the R more active. 1 Kf3? a5 2 a3? axb4 3 axb4 Ra4 and it's Black playing for the win. [2 Rb6 axb4 3 Rxb5 Rxa2 is a safe draw.] White has no need to hurry; as long as his pawns are kept protected, there is no counterplay, and no way for Black to swap off pawns [... h5 is just another weakness]. As SBD comments, White seems to win a pawn at some stage; whether that's enough to win the game is another matter, but it looks very possible, given Black's enforced passivity. But since "all R&P endings are drawn", we would need to look in depth at some concrete lines. -- Andy Walker Nottingham
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Date: 19 May 2008 06:40:26
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 18, 6:59 pm, [email protected] (Andy Walker) wrote: > 1 Kf3 is not careful enough; 1 ... a5 activates the rook. > I think I would play 1 a3, so that 1 ... a5 allows 2 Rb6 winning > the b-pawn. It's not easy for Black; a passive defence allows > White to advance K and pawns, winning the f-pawn, while a K advance > probably just gets driven back. Whether White wins with best play > would take more analysis than I currently feel the position is > worth, but in a real game I would certainly be playing on .... As TK noted, I was just giving a brief assessment as no one had answered. I didn't mean to offend anyone, but hey, if I offended some "Illinois Nazi," to quote Belushi, I really don't care. But Walker's answer is better. I really doubt there is " a win" here so long as black is careful in the conversion - at some point white will probably win a pawn but not the game. I am not sure that computers don't overrate the doubled pawns here. The only problem with the doubled pawns in my opinion is the isolation of the h-pawn, which could become problematic. A weak player would shove pawns here and playing h5 too quickly might be fatal. It is the kind of position in the old days of chess clubs that we would often analyze to death, and with great relish. Today, not to criticize, just an observation, people too quickly turn on Fritz......
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Date: 18 May 2008 23:59:27
From: Andy Walker
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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In article <b4e56dc2-87d5-4eda-84e6-f090c60feaba@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com >, <[email protected] > wrote: >On May 18, 3:41^ am, "Sandra Mohammed" ><[email protected]> wrote: >> 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 [...] > Black's rook can become active if White is not careful, e.g. 1.Kf3 >f5 2.Kf4 Re7!. 1 Kf3 is not careful enough; 1 ... a5 activates the rook. I think I would play 1 a3, so that 1 ... a5 allows 2 Rb6 winning the b-pawn. It's not easy for Black; a passive defence allows White to advance K and pawns, winning the f-pawn, while a K advance probably just gets driven back. Whether White wins with best play would take more analysis than I currently feel the position is worth, but in a real game I would certainly be playing on .... -- Andy Walker Nottingham
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Date: 18 May 2008 06:45:25
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 18, 2:41 am, "Sandra Mohammed" <[email protected] > wrote: > 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 Seems unlikely, unless black is very weak.
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Date: 18 May 2008 16:24:33
From:
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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On May 18, 2:58=A0pm, Chess F=FChrer <[email protected] > wrote: > "SBD" <[email protected]> wrote in message > > news:fa552924-b531-4d7d-8102-6f71fde1ffc5@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > > > On May 18, 2:41 am, "Sandra Mohammed" > > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 > > > Seems unlikely, unless black is very weak. > > I don't think the question was =A0"Can an idiot troll make a useless post > here" If it was, then your response would have been appropriate. Whatever the question was, your post is gratuitously rude, even insulting, toward Dr. Dowd, and is hardly an appropriate response. He simply gave his opinion, in a straightforward manner that was neither useless, nor idiotic, nor troll-like. Someone calling himself "F=FChrer," who gives his domain as "newworldorder.org," does not exactly win any points for tactfulness.
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Date: 18 May 2008 18:58:54
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Chess_F=FChrer?=
Subject: Re: Can White win this position?
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"SBD" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:fa552924-b531-4d7d-8102-6f71fde1ffc5@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > On May 18, 2:41 am, "Sandra Mohammed" > <[email protected]> wrote: >> 8/r4pkp/p1R2p2/1p6/1P6/6P1/P3PK1P/8 w - - 0 37 > > Seems unlikely, unless black is very weak. I don't think the question was "Can an idiot troll make a useless post here" If it was, then your response would have been appropriate. Personally, I think it's won for White. Black's rook is relegated to the defense of the a-pawn and his weakened kingside pawns are a problem.
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