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Main
Date: 10 Dec 2008 05:27:47
From:
Subject: Greatest Games, etc
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Horrible to re-introduce chess into ches misc - but I have a game or
two which might stand up to reasonable analysis. Unknown when I wrote
the 'annotation' below, maybe 15 years ago. I have some questions
about the game, especially one move which my opponent never played,
but OTB at the time I simply didn't see what to do.
The initial question though is Fritz's evaluation [or anyone's] of
move 14 g2-g4.
I also wonder how many people would play 11.. Be6-g8, but that is
Sokolski's idea - is it also Fritz's? Also, what should black do
instead of his move 25?
At the time the game was played, Fritz was just a gleam in someone's
eye - and in fact, if Neil Brennan had never demanded to see this game
I wouldn't have put it here originally, and it would be gone since I
don't have the game score otherwise.
Phil Innes
Innes : Bornholz
Amherst, Massacussetts
Date: 7/16/89
1. b2-b4
I am playing a man who had a nasty habit of beating
grandmasters in his youth including Frank Marshall.
I thought I'd avoid the Ruy, the Marshall attack, and
practically everything else.
e7-e5
2. c1-b2 d7-d6
3. c2-c4 b8-c6
unusual, the other Knight is usually developed first.
4. b4-b5
this pawn advance is called "the spike"
c6-e7
going to the K side to assault my King.
5. e2-e3 e7-g6
6. b1-c3 f7-f5
7. d1-b3
the idea is to sit on the light squared diagonal
and also observe the Q side.
g8-f6
8. f1-e2
Sokolski recommends this as a better square than d3.
f8-e7
9. g1-f3
the game would take a different course if the pawn advanced
immediately.
c8-e6
10. d2-d4 e5-e4
11. f3-g5
to "ask the question" to black's light squared bishop, the
alternative
is Nd2.
e6-g8
played immediately - I was wondering if Bob had been here before -
remarkably
this is still "book"
12. a2-a4
wrong timing, but thinking about a4-a5, and a breakthrough.
f6-d7
13. g5-h3 a7-a5
now what? - we have a stand-off
the black light square bishop will return to the center
and black will castle and push the f pawn. I find a wild plan to
liquidate
black's center pawns. I discounted castling - no time, and this is
the
only
game I can remember of 30 moves or more that neither side moved their
kings!
14. g2-g4
radical.. If black does not take the pawn then there are remarkable
complications.
f5xg4
15. e2xg4 d7-f6
16. g4-f5 g6-h4
17. f5xe4 f6xe4
winning a pawn but releasing the pressure - black now has K side
attacking
chances, the two bishops,
18. c3xe4 d6-d5
19. e4-d2 d5xc4
20. b3-c2
avoiding some tactical shots
g8-e6
21. h3-f4 e6-g4
22. c2xc4
the black center pawns have gone, and dark square tactical chances
increase.
d8-d7
23. h1-g1 e7-f6
24. f4-d5 f6-d8
25. e3-e4
why not? having attacked on the Q side, the K side, now the center.
The whole
game is insane -black still has lots of tactical chances
c7-c6
but I think this is a mistake - he needs to find the combinations
which give
his bishops bite
26. d5-e3 g4-h5
apart from the white king having no luft and the easy incursion of
the
black
Queen I have no problems
27. b5xc6 b7xc6
28. d4-d5 a8-c8
not best - but white now owns the center and can strike anywhere
29. g1xg7
overlooked, this seals it up
d7-h3
30. g7-g3 h3xh2
I did calculate this, honestly
31. b2xh8 h2-h1+
32. e3-f1 time.
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Date: 13 Dec 2008 13:51:06
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
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On Dec 13, 3:56=A0pm, Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote:
> >>> For my penance, 5 hours locked in a room with GetClub.
> >So...just one move?
> Not yet.
Try Easy level. It move bery fast. Play strong
to. Beat 99% players accept those who cheat
using Fritz. Full game take only half hour. Bye.
Play chest at http\\;www.getclub.con
-- Sanny bot
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Date: 10 Dec 2008 20:35:46
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 8:27=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> Horrible to re-introduce chess into ches misc
Technically speaking, game analysis does
not belong in rgc.misc-- but then, who would
see it if buried in just rgc.analysis?
>- but I have a game or
> two which might stand up to reasonable analysis.
Cherry picking. The idea of the thread
regarding Mr. Morphy was to have him at
his peak (hard to avoid that, eh?), and his
modern day opponent at whatever his
current strength might be. Now, in order
to determine that, we need to take random
samples, not just cherry-picked games.
> Unknown when I wrote
> the 'annotation' below, maybe 15 years ago. I have some questions
> about the game, especially one move which my opponent never played,
> but OTB at the time I simply didn't see what to do.
> The initial question though is Fritz's evaluation [or anyone's] of
> move 14 g2-g4.
You might be surprised to find out that
your Orangutan has transposed into a
sort of reversed self-torture opening, aka
the French Defense, but with the Bishop
somewhat misplaced at b2.
Now, if I have not lost you, you will note
that the pawn-thrust p-g4 is a common
motiff-- not something unusual except in
that it is inferior to castling, followed by
p-f3 or p-f4.
> I also wonder how many people would play 11.. Be6-g8, but that is
> Sokolski's idea - is it also Fritz's?
That is pretty normal, judging from my
experience. However, what is not so
common is the idea of moving this piece
once again, to f7, in order to prepare to
castle. As we saw, your opponent did
not think of it, but clumsily left his King
in the center.
> Also, what should black do instead of his move 25?
I believe you will find that White, too, has
erred in exposing his own King. The
obvious thing to do was to force White to
move his King, thus depriving him
permanently of the right to castle.
> At the time the game was played, Fritz was just a gleam in someone's
> eye - and in fact, if Neil Brennan had never demanded to see this game
> I wouldn't have put it here originally, and it would be gone since I
> don't have the game score otherwise.
> Innes : Bornholz
Was this a serious, rated game?
> Amherst, Massacussetts
> Date: 7/16/89
>
> 1. b2-b4
> I am playing a man who had a nasty habit of beating
> grandmasters in his youth including Frank Marshall.
> I thought I'd avoid the Ruy, the Marshall attack, and
> practically everything else.
I recall a fellow named Morphy who had a
very similar habit; he smashed the masters
of his day, in his youth, just as you describe.
> =A0 4. b4-b5
> this pawn advance is called "the spike"
Everyone knows that this is called the
Orangutan. The Spike is p-g4, as you
should know from Mr. Sloan's famous
games; indeed, I think it has been re-
named in his honor, though I can't explain
how Mr. Sloan, or "grub", evolved into the
present day spelling "Grob".
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0c6-e7
> going to the K side to assault my King.
How do you know where he is going?
Are you annotating based on a piece's
intentions, or on where he sits in the
present?
> =A0 5. e2-e3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-g6
> =A0 6. b1-c3 =A0 f7-f5
> =A0 7. d1-b3
> the idea is to sit on the light squared diagonal
> and also observe the Q side.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g8-f6
> =A0 8. f1-e2
> Sokolski recommends this as a better square than d3.
Hey, hey-- this is also a good square in that
putrid, self-defeating opening, the French
Defense.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 f8-e7
> =A0 9. g1-f3
> the game would take a different course if the pawn advanced
> immediately.
Impeccable logic!
> =A0 =A0 =A0c8-e6
> =A010. d2-d4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e5-e4
> =A011. f3-g5
> to "ask the question" to black's light squared bishop, the
> alternative
> is Nd2.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e6-g8
> played immediately - I was wondering if Bob had been here before -
> remarkably
> this is still "book"
> =A012. a2-a4
> wrong timing, but thinking about a4-a5, and a breakthrough.
Wrong plan. The correct plan here
is to castle Kingside and immediately
strike at the center with p-f3.
> =A0 =A0 =A0f6-d7
> =A013. g5-h3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a7-a5
> now what? - we have a stand-off
> the black light square bishop will return to the center
> and black will castle and push the f pawn. I find a wild plan to
> liquidate black's center pawns. I discounted castling - no time, and this=
is
> the only game I can remember of 30 moves or more that neither side moved =
their
> kings!
Back in the old days, this was not
particularly uncommon.
> =A014. g2-g4
> radical.. If black does not take the pawn then there are remarkable
> complications.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 f5xg4
> =A015. e2xg4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d7-f6
> =A016. g4-f5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g6-h4
> =A017. f5xe4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0f6xe4
> winning a pawn but releasing the pressure - black now has K side
> attacking chances, the two bishops,
> =A018. c3xe4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d6-d5
> =A019. e4-d2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d5xc4
> =A020. b3-c2
> avoiding some tactical shots
How about avoiding instant vaporization?
I really don't think it wise to delude oneself
into thinking one is not being driven into
retreat (remember the Korean War... the
Alamo... that time you unwisely angered a
skunk, not knowing any better?).
> =A0 =A0 =A0g8-e6
> =A021. h3-f4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e6-g4
> =A022. c2xc4
> the black center pawns have gone, and dark square tactical chances
> increase.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 d8-d7
> =A023. h1-g1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-f6
> =A024. f4-d5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0f6-d8
> =A025. e3-e4
> why not? having attacked on the Q side, the K side, now the center.
> The whole
> game is insane -black still has lots of tactical chances
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 c7-c6
> but I think this is a mistake - he needs to find the combinations
> which give his bishops bite
> =A026. d5-e3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g4-h5
> apart from the white king having no luft and the easy incursion of
> the black Queen I have no problems
> =A027. b5xc6 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0b7xc6
> =A028. d4-d5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a8-c8
> not best - but white now owns the center and can strike anywhere
> =A029. g1xg7
> overlooked, this seals it up
Which is to say, he blundered in time
pressure.
> =A0 =A0 =A0d7-h3
> =A030. g7-g3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0h3xh2
> I did calculate this, honestly
> =A031. b2xh8 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0h2-h1+
> =A032. e3-f1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0time.
I think this boils down to a tactical
error in which Black mistakenly
believed that playing ...Ng2+ would
lose the initiative (or the move) after
the reply Kf1. In fact, after Kf1
Black can reply with ...Qd7, and it is
White whose King suffers from being
unable to castle, stuck in the middle.
Some might say the old man had
lost a step, but I would venture that
he had lost many a step, due to old
age. Anyway, it looks as though the
idea of playing wildly worked out well.
It certainly worked for me in one
game against a vastly superior
player, although in another case I
wished I had taken more time and
played solid, iron defense instead of
self-destructing.
-- help bot
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Date: 13 Dec 2008 12:14:27
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
help bot wrote:
> On Dec 10, 8:27 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Horrible to re-introduce chess into ches misc
>
>
> Technically speaking, game analysis does
> not belong in rgc.misc-- but then, who would
> see it if buried in just rgc.analysis?
The people who are *interested* in it?
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/
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Date: 10 Dec 2008 13:47:39
From:
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 3:57=A0pm, Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:24 -0800, Mike Murray
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:39:38 -0800, Mike Murray
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Forget my comments. =A0I got the score screwed up. =A0Apologies.
> >I'll look at it again.
>
> >Mea culpa, Mea culpa,. Mea maxima culpa.
>
> >For my penance, 5 hours locked in a room with GetClub.
>
> I tried to rescind my original post, but it probably won't work. =A0For
> the record, when replaying the game, I had recaptured at c4 with
> White's Knight, not the Queen, on move 22, so the rest of the game
> "played" but didn't make much sense.
No worries Mike, but do I still need to set up the position and still
analyse your earlier comments? You see, I have a friend here who also
likes to play chess - a calico cat. So you can't set up a board and
pieces and expect it to be the same when you next look at it ...
; )
Your Kt checks seem impossible if you got the position wrong at 22,
and so on.
But hey! Look what we are all doing here in chess.misc, we are doing
chess baby!@ ;))
Cordially, Phil Powers
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Date: 10 Dec 2008 14:55:36
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:47:39 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:
>No worries Mike, but do I still need to set up the position and still
>analyse your earlier comments?
Naaa. Things only got weird after 22.
>
>Your Kt checks seem impossible if you got the position wrong at 22,
>and so on.
Maybe that wasn't my only error. I'll check again this evening.
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Date: 10 Dec 2008 13:37:03
From:
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 4:23=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Dec 10, 3:15=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 10, 8:27=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > Horrible to re-introduce chess into ches misc - but I have a game or
> > > two which might stand up to reasonable analysis.
>
> > =A0 OK, Phil, I'll oblige you with a little Fritz8-assisted analysis. I
> > have little literature on the Sokolsky, aka Orangutan, so I won't
> > comment on the opening. But the middle game has definite points of
> > interest.
>
> > =A0 Innes-Bornholz, Amherst, 1989:
>
> > 1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.b5 Nce7 5.e3 Ng6 6.Nc3 f5 7.Qb3 Nf6 8.Be2
> > Be7 9.Nf3 Be6 10.d4 e4 11.Ng5 Bg8 12.a4 Nd7 13.Nh3 a5 14.g4
>
> > =A0 Audacious and risky; perhaps played with an eye to the short TL? It
> > seems that White gets the better position with the sounder 14.0-0, but
> > that may just be a reflection of my stylistic preference.
>
> There are quieter or 'sounder' moves sure. But surely Fritz didn't say
> that? Castling anyplace at the moment is a curious way to proceed.
> After 14 0-0, I might prefer to be black and like in a KID launch the
> entire K side at the castled King, even if it costs a button or two.
> But as you say, this is a stylistic difference, and I want the
> intiative, will even gambit a pawn for it if it allows both bishops to
> enter the game.
>
> > 14...fxg4 15.Bxg4 Nf6 16.Bf5?!
>
> > =A0 This wins a pawn, but exposes White to attack. Overall it looks a
> > bit _too_ audacious; against best play it should backfire.
>
> Interesting - but what does Fritz say the backfire actually is?
Phil, as I have advised before, it's best to read the entire post
before responding in any way, especially before asking questions which
the post actually answers. The backfire is seen in the 18...Nf3+ and
20...Ng2+ variations I have already supplied.
> > Soundest is
> > probably 16.Be2, but in that case White would be admitting that 14.g4
> > was wrong.
>
> Quite. One had to forsee reaction to 16. Bf5 etc.
>
> > 16...Nh4! 17.Bxe4 Nxe4 18.Nxe4 d5
>
> > =A0 A good move, but more interesting, and probably best here, is
> > 18...Nf3+. There are several main variations:
>
> > =A0 A) If 19.Kf1?? d5 wins at least a piece, since if the Ne4 moves the=
n
> > 20=85Nd2+, or if 20.cxd5 Bxd5 21.Qc2 Bxe4 22.Qxe4 Nd2+.
>
> > =A0 B) 19.Kd1 d5 20.cxd5 Bxd5 21.Qd3 Ne5 22.Qc2 (22.dxe5 Bxe4 23.Qxd8+
> > Rxd8+ 24.Ke2 Bd3+ 25.Kf3 Rf8+ 26.Nf4 (or 26.Kg3 Be4 27.Rhg1 Rf3+)
> > 26...g5 =96+) 22...c6 23.bxc6 Rc8 with terrific initiative for Black.
>
> \Well, there is something for people to chew over. An 8 move sequence
> offering black... But I am reading this without site of the board, so
> make no immediate comment.
>
> I also see there are other responses, so will return to this analysis
> after I read them, and also review the position by actually looking at
> it.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> > =A0 C) 19.Ke2 divides into two main variations, 19=85Qc8 and 19=85d5:
>
> > =A0 C1) 19=85Qc8
>
> > =A0 C1a: 20.Nf4 Qg4 21.h3 Nxd4+ 22.Kd3 Qxf4 23.Bxd4 Qf5 24.Bxg7 d5
> > 25.Kc3 (25.Bxh8?? dxc4+) 25...dxe4 26.Bxh8 Qxf2 27.Qc2 (else 27...Bb4+
> > is deadly) 27...Qxe3+ 28.Kb2 0=960=960 and White has many problems;
> > =A0 C1b) 20.Kxf3 Qxh3+ 21.Ng3 (if 21.Ke2 d5 22.cxd5 Qh5+ 23.Kd2 Bxd5
> > with mucho compensation for the pawn.) 21..Be6 22.Ke2 (else 22=85Bg4+ i=
s
> > deadly) 22=850-0 with strong initiative;
> > =A0 C1c) 20.Ng1!. This is definitely best here, for example 20=85d5
> > 21.cxd5 Qg4 22.Nxf3 Qxe4 23.Qd3 Qxd5 24.e4 and White is better.
>
> > =A0 C2) In view of the strength of 20.Ng1, Black seems better off with
> > 19...d5. If then 20.Nc3 dxc4 21.Qc2 Qd7 or 21=85Be6 is strong.
> > Alternately if 20.Kxf3 dxe4+ 21.Kg2 Qd7 and Black has good attacking
> > chances against White=92s weakened kingside.
>
> > =A0 But enough about what 18=85Nf3+ might have wrought. Back to the gam=
e
> > proper:
>
> > 19.Nd2 dxc4 20.Qc2
>
> > =A0 Not 20.Nxc4?? Qd5 =96+.
>
> > 20...Be6?!
>
> > =A0 Beginning here, and for several of the next few moves, is where
> > Black goes wrong, IMO. Better was 20...Ng2+! 21.Kf1 Qd7 22.Ng1 (not
> > 22.Kxg2?? Qg4+ 23.Kf1 Qxh3+ =96+) 22...Nh4 23.h3 Bb4 and I would
> > definitely prefer Black=92s position.
>
> > 21.Nf4 Bg4?!
>
> > =A0 Again not so hot; better 21...Bf7
>
> > 22.Qxc4
>
> > =A0 Also good was 22.Rg1 Qd7 23.Qxc4.
>
> > 22...Qd7 23.Rg1 Bf6?
>
> > =A0 A definite mistake. Better 23...Bb4 24.Bc3 Bxc3 25.Qxc3 0=960, and
> > while White stands better, there=92s a lot of play left. After the text
> > Fritz rates Black as lost, about +2.05.
>
> > 24.Nd5
>
> > =A0 Not at all bad, but Fritz doesn=92t even put this in its top 10, an=
d
> > this makes it revise its assessment down to about +1.25. It prefers a
> > subtle, almost cryptic move: 24.Bc3. I don=92t profess to understand it=
s
> > reasons fully, but the main point seems to be to tie the QR down to
> > defense of the a-pawn, so that Black can=92t castle queenside. A sample
> > variation: 24.Bc3 h5 25.h3 Bxh3 26.Nxh3 Qxh3 27.Qd5 Ra7 (the only way
> > to keep both the a- and b-pawns 28.Qe4+ Kd7 29.Rh1 Qg4 30.Qxg4+ hxg4
> > 31.Ke2 and 31.Rag1 and the g4-pawn falls.
> > =A0 Fritz also likes 24.Qd5, viz. 24=85Bf3 (not 24...0=960=960?? 25.Qxd=
7+ Bxd7
> > 26.Nd5 +-) 25.Qxd7+ Kxd7 26.Rg3 g5 27.Nd3 g4 28.h3 h5 29.Nc5+ Kc8
> > 30.Nxf3 Nxf3+ 31.Ke2 Bh4 32.Rg2 Rg8 33.Rh1 Bd8 34.hxg4 hxg4 35.Rh7 +-.
>
> > 24...Bd8 25.e4 c6??
>
> > =A0 Innes is correct that this is a mistake; if any one move can be
> > called =93the losing move,=94 this is it. Relatively best was 25...Be6.
> > White would then stand better after 26.Qe2, Qc5 or Rc1, but Black is
> > far from lost.
>
> > 26.Ne3 Bh5
>
> > =A0 Somewhat better was 26...Bh3 or 26...h5.
>
> > 27.bxc6 bxc6 28.d5
>
> > =A0 Another good alternative was 28.Qc5 Bg6 29.Ba3.
>
> > 28...Rc8??
>
> > =A0 Easing White=92s task, though after 28...cxd5 29.Qxd5 Qxd5 30.Nxd5
> > White still wins.
>
> > 29.Rxg7 Qh3 30.Rg3
>
> > =A0 Even stronger was 30.d6 Kf8 31.d7 Rc7 32.Qc5+ Be7 33.Qxe7#.
>
> > 30...Qxh2 31.Bxh8 Qh1+ 32.Nef1 1=960
>
> > =A0 An interesting game.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Date: 10 Dec 2008 13:26:22
From:
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 3:39=A0pm, Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 05:27:47 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:
>
> Jeez, Phil, what can I say? =A0I've added question marks where
> appropriate. =A0Exclamation marks seem out of context here.
>
> >Innes : Bornholz
> >Amherst, Massacussetts
> >Date: 7/16/89
> >1. b2-b4 =A0 =A0e7-e5
> > =A02. c1-b2 =A0 d7-d6
> > =A03. c2-c4 =A0 =A0b8-c6
> > =A04. b4-b5 =A0 ...
> >this pawn advance is called "the spike"
>
> No, "The Spike" is another name for Grob's Opening, which involves the
> *other* Knight's Pawn.
I am sure that Basman's term for the same motif on the K side is
readily understandable on the Q side
> > 4 =A0... =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0c6-e7
> > =A05. e2-e3 =A0 =A0e7-g6
> > =A06. b1-c3 =A0 f7-f5
> > =A07. d1-b3 =A0 =A0 g8-f6
> > =A08. f1-e2 =A0 =A0 =A0f8-e7
> > =A09. g1-f3 =A0 =A0 c8-e6
> > 10. d2-d4 =A0 =A0 e5-e4
> > 11. f3-g5 =A0 =A0 =A0e6-g8
> >played immediately - I was wondering if Bob had been here before -
> >remarkably this is still "book"
>
> What book? =A0What game? =A0What's the cite?
Didn't I mention Sokolski?
When you are googling for that, note an early 3-pawn sac by Fischer
after 1.b4 when black plays 2. ... f6
Without site of the board I can't go 24 moves - so will return anon.
Phil
>
> > 12. a2-a4 =A0 =A0f6-d7
> > 13. g5-h3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a7-a5
> > 14. g2-g4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0f5xg4
> > 15. e2xg4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d7-f6
> > 16. g4-f5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g6-h4
> > 17. f5xe4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0f6xe4
> > 18. c3xe4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d6-d5
> > 19. e4-d2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d5xc4
> > 20. b3-c2 =A0 =A0 g8-e6
> > 21. h3-f4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e6-g4
> > 22. c2xc4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 d8-d7
> > 23. h1-g1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-f6 ?
>
> What's wrong with the obvious ... Nf3ch, snagging the exchange?
>
> > 24. f4-d5 =A0?? =A0 =A0 ...
>
> This should lose outright. =A024 Q-K4ch and Black is busted.
>
> > 24. =A0... =A0f6-d8 ??
>
> Now Black again misses a clear win with ...Nf3ch
>
> > 25. e3-e4 ...
> >why not? having attacked on the Q side, the K side, now the center.
>
> Why not? =A0Well, primarily because 24 Q-K4ch still wins outright.
>
> >The whole game is insane
>
> Perceptive.
>
> > =A025 ... =A0 =A0 =A0c7-c6
> >but I think this is a mistake - he needs to find the combinations
> >which give his bishops =A0bite
>
> Black seems to have had a phobia against ... Nf3 in this game. It's
> also correct here, with about an equal game.
>
> > 26. d5-e3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g4-h5
> > 27. b5xc6 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0b7xc6
> > 28. d4-d5 ?
>
> 28 N-K5 is much better with a big plus for White. =A0The text should
> lose.
>
> =A0... =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a8-c8??
>
> >not best - but white now owns the center and can strike anywhere
>
> Indeed, not best, since 28 ... Nf3ch wins outright.
>
> > 29. g1xg7 ?
> >overlooked, this seals it up
>
> Better was 29 N-KB5.
>
> > =A029... =A0 d7-h3 ??
>
> Black still equalizes with 29 ... Nf3ch.
>
> > 30. g7-g3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0h3xh2
> > 31. b2xh8 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0h2-h1+
> > 32. e3-f1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0time.
>
> Well, yes, he was lost at this point.
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 13:23:02
From:
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 3:15=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Dec 10, 8:27=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Horrible to re-introduce chess into ches misc - but I have a game or
> > two which might stand up to reasonable analysis.
>
> =A0 OK, Phil, I'll oblige you with a little Fritz8-assisted analysis. I
> have little literature on the Sokolsky, aka Orangutan, so I won't
> comment on the opening. But the middle game has definite points of
> interest.
>
> =A0 Innes-Bornholz, Amherst, 1989:
>
> 1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.b5 Nce7 5.e3 Ng6 6.Nc3 f5 7.Qb3 Nf6 8.Be2
> Be7 9.Nf3 Be6 10.d4 e4 11.Ng5 Bg8 12.a4 Nd7 13.Nh3 a5 14.g4
>
> =A0 Audacious and risky; perhaps played with an eye to the short TL? It
> seems that White gets the better position with the sounder 14.0-0, but
> that may just be a reflection of my stylistic preference.
There are quieter or 'sounder' moves sure. But surely Fritz didn't say
that? Castling anyplace at the moment is a curious way to proceed.
After 14 0-0, I might prefer to be black and like in a KID launch the
entire K side at the castled King, even if it costs a button or two.
But as you say, this is a stylistic difference, and I want the
intiative, will even gambit a pawn for it if it allows both bishops to
enter the game.
> 14...fxg4 15.Bxg4 Nf6 16.Bf5?!
>
> =A0 This wins a pawn, but exposes White to attack. Overall it looks a
> bit _too_ audacious; against best play it should backfire.
Interesting - but what does Fritz say the backfire actually is?
> Soundest is
> probably 16.Be2, but in that case White would be admitting that 14.g4
> was wrong.
Quite. One had to forsee reaction to 16. Bf5 etc.
> 16...Nh4! 17.Bxe4 Nxe4 18.Nxe4 d5
>
> =A0 A good move, but more interesting, and probably best here, is
> 18...Nf3+. There are several main variations:
>
> =A0 A) If 19.Kf1?? d5 wins at least a piece, since if the Ne4 moves then
> 20=85Nd2+, or if 20.cxd5 Bxd5 21.Qc2 Bxe4 22.Qxe4 Nd2+.
>
> =A0 B) 19.Kd1 d5 20.cxd5 Bxd5 21.Qd3 Ne5 22.Qc2 (22.dxe5 Bxe4 23.Qxd8+
> Rxd8+ 24.Ke2 Bd3+ 25.Kf3 Rf8+ 26.Nf4 (or 26.Kg3 Be4 27.Rhg1 Rf3+)
> 26...g5 =96+) 22...c6 23.bxc6 Rc8 with terrific initiative for Black.
\Well, there is something for people to chew over. An 8 move sequence
offering black... But I am reading this without site of the board, so
make no immediate comment.
I also see there are other responses, so will return to this analysis
after I read them, and also review the position by actually looking at
it.
Phil
> =A0 C) 19.Ke2 divides into two main variations, 19=85Qc8 and 19=85d5:
>
> =A0 C1) 19=85Qc8
>
> =A0 C1a: 20.Nf4 Qg4 21.h3 Nxd4+ 22.Kd3 Qxf4 23.Bxd4 Qf5 24.Bxg7 d5
> 25.Kc3 (25.Bxh8?? dxc4+) 25...dxe4 26.Bxh8 Qxf2 27.Qc2 (else 27...Bb4+
> is deadly) 27...Qxe3+ 28.Kb2 0=960=960 and White has many problems;
> =A0 C1b) 20.Kxf3 Qxh3+ 21.Ng3 (if 21.Ke2 d5 22.cxd5 Qh5+ 23.Kd2 Bxd5
> with mucho compensation for the pawn.) 21..Be6 22.Ke2 (else 22=85Bg4+ is
> deadly) 22=850-0 with strong initiative;
> =A0 C1c) 20.Ng1!. This is definitely best here, for example 20=85d5
> 21.cxd5 Qg4 22.Nxf3 Qxe4 23.Qd3 Qxd5 24.e4 and White is better.
>
> =A0 C2) In view of the strength of 20.Ng1, Black seems better off with
> 19...d5. If then 20.Nc3 dxc4 21.Qc2 Qd7 or 21=85Be6 is strong.
> Alternately if 20.Kxf3 dxe4+ 21.Kg2 Qd7 and Black has good attacking
> chances against White=92s weakened kingside.
>
> =A0 But enough about what 18=85Nf3+ might have wrought. Back to the game
> proper:
>
> 19.Nd2 dxc4 20.Qc2
>
> =A0 Not 20.Nxc4?? Qd5 =96+.
>
> 20...Be6?!
>
> =A0 Beginning here, and for several of the next few moves, is where
> Black goes wrong, IMO. Better was 20...Ng2+! 21.Kf1 Qd7 22.Ng1 (not
> 22.Kxg2?? Qg4+ 23.Kf1 Qxh3+ =96+) 22...Nh4 23.h3 Bb4 and I would
> definitely prefer Black=92s position.
>
> 21.Nf4 Bg4?!
>
> =A0 Again not so hot; better 21...Bf7
>
> 22.Qxc4
>
> =A0 Also good was 22.Rg1 Qd7 23.Qxc4.
>
> 22...Qd7 23.Rg1 Bf6?
>
> =A0 A definite mistake. Better 23...Bb4 24.Bc3 Bxc3 25.Qxc3 0=960, and
> while White stands better, there=92s a lot of play left. After the text
> Fritz rates Black as lost, about +2.05.
>
> 24.Nd5
>
> =A0 Not at all bad, but Fritz doesn=92t even put this in its top 10, and
> this makes it revise its assessment down to about +1.25. It prefers a
> subtle, almost cryptic move: 24.Bc3. I don=92t profess to understand its
> reasons fully, but the main point seems to be to tie the QR down to
> defense of the a-pawn, so that Black can=92t castle queenside. A sample
> variation: 24.Bc3 h5 25.h3 Bxh3 26.Nxh3 Qxh3 27.Qd5 Ra7 (the only way
> to keep both the a- and b-pawns 28.Qe4+ Kd7 29.Rh1 Qg4 30.Qxg4+ hxg4
> 31.Ke2 and 31.Rag1 and the g4-pawn falls.
> =A0 Fritz also likes 24.Qd5, viz. 24=85Bf3 (not 24...0=960=960?? 25.Qxd7+=
Bxd7
> 26.Nd5 +-) 25.Qxd7+ Kxd7 26.Rg3 g5 27.Nd3 g4 28.h3 h5 29.Nc5+ Kc8
> 30.Nxf3 Nxf3+ 31.Ke2 Bh4 32.Rg2 Rg8 33.Rh1 Bd8 34.hxg4 hxg4 35.Rh7 +-.
>
> 24...Bd8 25.e4 c6??
>
> =A0 Innes is correct that this is a mistake; if any one move can be
> called =93the losing move,=94 this is it. Relatively best was 25...Be6.
> White would then stand better after 26.Qe2, Qc5 or Rc1, but Black is
> far from lost.
>
> 26.Ne3 Bh5
>
> =A0 Somewhat better was 26...Bh3 or 26...h5.
>
> 27.bxc6 bxc6 28.d5
>
> =A0 Another good alternative was 28.Qc5 Bg6 29.Ba3.
>
> 28...Rc8??
>
> =A0 Easing White=92s task, though after 28...cxd5 29.Qxd5 Qxd5 30.Nxd5
> White still wins.
>
> 29.Rxg7 Qh3 30.Rg3
>
> =A0 Even stronger was 30.d6 Kf8 31.d7 Rc7 32.Qc5+ Be7 33.Qxe7#.
>
> 30...Qxh2 31.Bxh8 Qh1+ 32.Nef1 1=960
>
> =A0 An interesting game.
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 13:10:09
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 3:48=A0pm, Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote:
> Forget my comments. =A0I got the score screwed up. =A0Apologies.
> I'll look at it again.
>
> Mea culpa, Mea culpa,. Mea maxima culpa.
After reading your commentary, I figured it
was high time I upgraded to whatever chess
engine you were using, which so easily
found moves no one else had ever imagined!
Is this the famed Alekhine module for the
thousand-dollar Mephisto tabletop computer,
I wondered? Or perhaps Sanny himself
had finally released a commercial version of
his masterpiece... .
Oh well, back to my freebie Rybka and my
slow notebook computer, which despite
everything, easily out-does Mr. Kingston and
that other notorious wannabee analyst, Dr.
IMnes 2-4-5-0.
-- help bot
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 12:39:38
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 05:27:47 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:
Jeez, Phil, what can I say? I've added question marks where
appropriate. Exclamation marks seem out of context here.
>Innes : Bornholz
>Amherst, Massacussetts
>Date: 7/16/89
>1. b2-b4 e7-e5
> 2. c1-b2 d7-d6
> 3. c2-c4 b8-c6
> 4. b4-b5 ...
>this pawn advance is called "the spike"
No, "The Spike" is another name for Grob's Opening, which involves the
*other* Knight's Pawn.
> 4 ... c6-e7
> 5. e2-e3 e7-g6
> 6. b1-c3 f7-f5
> 7. d1-b3 g8-f6
> 8. f1-e2 f8-e7
> 9. g1-f3 c8-e6
> 10. d2-d4 e5-e4
> 11. f3-g5 e6-g8
>played immediately - I was wondering if Bob had been here before -
>remarkably this is still "book"
What book? What game? What's the cite?
> 12. a2-a4 f6-d7
> 13. g5-h3 a7-a5
> 14. g2-g4 f5xg4
> 15. e2xg4 d7-f6
> 16. g4-f5 g6-h4
> 17. f5xe4 f6xe4
> 18. c3xe4 d6-d5
> 19. e4-d2 d5xc4
> 20. b3-c2 g8-e6
> 21. h3-f4 e6-g4
> 22. c2xc4 d8-d7
> 23. h1-g1 e7-f6 ?
What's wrong with the obvious ... Nf3ch, snagging the exchange?
> 24. f4-d5 ?? ...
This should lose outright. 24 Q-K4ch and Black is busted.
> 24. ... f6-d8 ??
Now Black again misses a clear win with ...Nf3ch
> 25. e3-e4 ...
>why not? having attacked on the Q side, the K side, now the center.
Why not? Well, primarily because 24 Q-K4ch still wins outright.
>The whole game is insane
Perceptive.
> 25 ... c7-c6
>but I think this is a mistake - he needs to find the combinations
>which give his bishops bite
Black seems to have had a phobia against ... Nf3 in this game. It's
also correct here, with about an equal game.
> 26. d5-e3 g4-h5
> 27. b5xc6 b7xc6
> 28. d4-d5 ?
28 N-K5 is much better with a big plus for White. The text should
lose.
... a8-c8??
>not best - but white now owns the center and can strike anywhere
Indeed, not best, since 28 ... Nf3ch wins outright.
> 29. g1xg7 ?
>overlooked, this seals it up
Better was 29 N-KB5.
> 29... d7-h3 ??
Black still equalizes with 29 ... Nf3ch.
> 30. g7-g3 h3xh2
> 31. b2xh8 h2-h1+
> 32. e3-f1 time.
Well, yes, he was lost at this point.
|
| | |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 12:48:24
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:39:38 -0800, Mike Murray
<[email protected] > wrote:
Forget my comments. I got the score screwed up. Apologies.
I'll look at it again.
Mea culpa, Mea culpa,. Mea maxima culpa.
For my penance, 5 hours locked in a room with GetClub.
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 12:57:28
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:24 -0800, Mike Murray
<[email protected] > wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:39:38 -0800, Mike Murray
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Forget my comments. I got the score screwed up. Apologies.
>I'll look at it again.
>
>Mea culpa, Mea culpa,. Mea maxima culpa.
>
>For my penance, 5 hours locked in a room with GetClub.
I tried to rescind my original post, but it probably won't work. For
the record, when replaying the game, I had recaptured at c4 with
White's Knight, not the Queen, on move 22, so the rest of the game
"played" but didn't make much sense.
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2008 12:03:27
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
Mike Murray wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:24 -0800, Mike Murray
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:39:38 -0800, Mike Murray
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Forget my comments. I got the score screwed up. Apologies.
>> I'll look at it again.
>>
>> Mea culpa, Mea culpa,. Mea maxima culpa.
>>
>> For my penance, 5 hours locked in a room with GetClub.
>
>
> I tried to rescind my original post, but it probably won't work. For
> the record, when replaying the game, I had recaptured at c4 with
> White's Knight, not the Queen, on move 22, so the rest of the game
> "played" but didn't make much sense.
So...just one move?
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2008 12:56:44
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:03:27 -0500, Kenneth Sloan
<[email protected] > wrote:
>>> For my penance, 5 hours locked in a room with GetClub.
>So...just one move?
Not yet.
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 12:15:28
From:
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 8:27=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> Horrible to re-introduce chess into ches misc - but I have a game or
> two which might stand up to reasonable analysis.
OK, Phil, I'll oblige you with a little Fritz8-assisted analysis. I
have little literature on the Sokolsky, aka Orangutan, so I won't
comment on the opening. But the middle game has definite points of
interest.
Innes-Bornholz, Amherst, 1989:
1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.b5 Nce7 5.e3 Ng6 6.Nc3 f5 7.Qb3 Nf6 8.Be2
Be7 9.Nf3 Be6 10.d4 e4 11.Ng5 Bg8 12.a4 Nd7 13.Nh3 a5 14.g4
Audacious and risky; perhaps played with an eye to the short TL? It
seems that White gets the better position with the sounder 14.0-0, but
that may just be a reflection of my stylistic preference.
14...fxg4 15.Bxg4 Nf6 16.Bf5?!
This wins a pawn, but exposes White to attack. Overall it looks a
bit _too_ audacious; against best play it should backfire. Soundest is
probably 16.Be2, but in that case White would be admitting that 14.g4
was wrong.
16...Nh4! 17.Bxe4 Nxe4 18.Nxe4 d5
A good move, but more interesting, and probably best here, is
18...Nf3+. There are several main variations:
A) If 19.Kf1?? d5 wins at least a piece, since if the Ne4 moves then
20=85Nd2+, or if 20.cxd5 Bxd5 21.Qc2 Bxe4 22.Qxe4 Nd2+.
B) 19.Kd1 d5 20.cxd5 Bxd5 21.Qd3 Ne5 22.Qc2 (22.dxe5 Bxe4 23.Qxd8+
Rxd8+ 24.Ke2 Bd3+ 25.Kf3 Rf8+ 26.Nf4 (or 26.Kg3 Be4 27.Rhg1 Rf3+)
26...g5 =96+) 22...c6 23.bxc6 Rc8 with terrific initiative for Black.
C) 19.Ke2 divides into two main variations, 19=85Qc8 and 19=85d5:
C1) 19=85Qc8
C1a: 20.Nf4 Qg4 21.h3 Nxd4+ 22.Kd3 Qxf4 23.Bxd4 Qf5 24.Bxg7 d5
25.Kc3 (25.Bxh8?? dxc4+) 25...dxe4 26.Bxh8 Qxf2 27.Qc2 (else 27...Bb4+
is deadly) 27...Qxe3+ 28.Kb2 0=960=960 and White has many problems;
C1b) 20.Kxf3 Qxh3+ 21.Ng3 (if 21.Ke2 d5 22.cxd5 Qh5+ 23.Kd2 Bxd5
with mucho compensation for the pawn.) 21..Be6 22.Ke2 (else 22=85Bg4+ is
deadly) 22=850-0 with strong initiative;
C1c) 20.Ng1!. This is definitely best here, for example 20=85d5
21.cxd5 Qg4 22.Nxf3 Qxe4 23.Qd3 Qxd5 24.e4 and White is better.
C2) In view of the strength of 20.Ng1, Black seems better off with
19...d5. If then 20.Nc3 dxc4 21.Qc2 Qd7 or 21=85Be6 is strong.
Alternately if 20.Kxf3 dxe4+ 21.Kg2 Qd7 and Black has good attacking
chances against White=92s weakened kingside.
But enough about what 18=85Nf3+ might have wrought. Back to the game
proper:
19.Nd2 dxc4 20.Qc2
Not 20.Nxc4?? Qd5 =96+.
20...Be6?!
Beginning here, and for several of the next few moves, is where
Black goes wrong, IMO. Better was 20...Ng2+! 21.Kf1 Qd7 22.Ng1 (not
22.Kxg2?? Qg4+ 23.Kf1 Qxh3+ =96+) 22...Nh4 23.h3 Bb4 and I would
definitely prefer Black=92s position.
21.Nf4 Bg4?!
Again not so hot; better 21...Bf7
22.Qxc4
Also good was 22.Rg1 Qd7 23.Qxc4.
22...Qd7 23.Rg1 Bf6?
A definite mistake. Better 23...Bb4 24.Bc3 Bxc3 25.Qxc3 0=960, and
while White stands better, there=92s a lot of play left. After the text
Fritz rates Black as lost, about +2.05.
24.Nd5
Not at all bad, but Fritz doesn=92t even put this in its top 10, and
this makes it revise its assessment down to about +1.25. It prefers a
subtle, almost cryptic move: 24.Bc3. I don=92t profess to understand its
reasons fully, but the main point seems to be to tie the QR down to
defense of the a-pawn, so that Black can=92t castle queenside. A sample
variation: 24.Bc3 h5 25.h3 Bxh3 26.Nxh3 Qxh3 27.Qd5 Ra7 (the only way
to keep both the a- and b-pawns 28.Qe4+ Kd7 29.Rh1 Qg4 30.Qxg4+ hxg4
31.Ke2 and 31.Rag1 and the g4-pawn falls.
Fritz also likes 24.Qd5, viz. 24=85Bf3 (not 24...0=960=960?? 25.Qxd7+ Bxd=
7
26.Nd5 +-) 25.Qxd7+ Kxd7 26.Rg3 g5 27.Nd3 g4 28.h3 h5 29.Nc5+ Kc8
30.Nxf3 Nxf3+ 31.Ke2 Bh4 32.Rg2 Rg8 33.Rh1 Bd8 34.hxg4 hxg4 35.Rh7 +-.
24...Bd8 25.e4 c6??
Innes is correct that this is a mistake; if any one move can be
called =93the losing move,=94 this is it. Relatively best was 25...Be6.
White would then stand better after 26.Qe2, Qc5 or Rc1, but Black is
far from lost.
26.Ne3 Bh5
Somewhat better was 26...Bh3 or 26...h5.
27.bxc6 bxc6 28.d5
Another good alternative was 28.Qc5 Bg6 29.Ba3.
28...Rc8??
Easing White=92s task, though after 28...cxd5 29.Qxd5 Qxd5 30.Nxd5
White still wins.
29.Rxg7 Qh3 30.Rg3
Even stronger was 30.d6 Kf8 31.d7 Rc7 32.Qc5+ Be7 33.Qxe7#.
30...Qxh2 31.Bxh8 Qh1+ 32.Nef1 1=960
An interesting game.
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 11:08:07
From:
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 11:44=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > Meanwhile, no commentary on the game itself? What is daft about such
> > 'commentators' who just can't talk about chess, is that there really
> > is no reason for them to exist here! Maybe chess politics would have
> > them...? Or chess-computers is another non-chess group ;)
>
> 2 days back you said you are the strongest player on this newgroup.
> You have beaten all the players here.
Actually, just the players who showed up to play, Sanny. Not even i
can beat players who I never played.
> So all players here are weaker than you. So how can they analyze a
> game of a player better than them?
>
> Only way is using Fritz/ Rybka/ GetClub Chess.
Ah - you know something? I guessed you were going to say that. So...
what does GetClub think?
> > But if you can't tell from this gamescore the level of the
> > participants, because your chess isn't up to it, what's the difference
> > between this and even stronger play, which you can't understand
> > either.
>
> What is your Rating ? Can you beat the Master Level at GetClub without
> taking help of any computer? Can you beat Taylor Kingston, Help Bot
> and SamSloan?
I played GetClub when it was very young - possibly these days it would
utterly destroy me, since it is now 4 x 4 x 4 times better. But maybe
no. I play strict clock-time, and have no 7 hours for play like Taylor
Kingston and Kelp Pot.
Yeah, I have at least 400 points over Taylor Kingston, so I is likely
big winning. Kelp Pot is bit stronger than brother Kingston, but has
not played strong players, so don't know how strong - maybe 1850 from
his comments when he really try. Better is the Sloan who plays as he
writes with superior psychology! Upset opponent soon, make daft
sacrifice, watch opponent be overconfident. Sloan best of 3, me say.
[in next series, my Great Games, I show how hurt back such behavior
from Sloanists - demonstrate win like great Capa style classical chess
- show me play against master too.]
At least 2 other players here quite strong, Wlod, from his comments is
same Kelp Pot - but maybe very strong for this group is EJAY, who get
nice draw from real GM OTB - shudda won too!]
> > And if you can't understand it, why share your miserable opinions in
> > public?
>
> Because this group is made to share our opinions. If you do not want
> opinions why post here? Well I am just 1200 rated player. So I do not
> understand how good was the game you displayed above.
Game played very crazy game!
How to outwit old fox, seen everything, beat big players, Is hard
task. Maybe GetClub try play game and win for White or Black - see if
GetClub play different moves than Old Masters.
At least you honest your opinion share - with say, no understand Heap
Great Playing. Is honest share no? You better than most your honest
make here.
You no say I Patzer 'thinking' game is trash, though I understand
small-time and with the littlenesses the playing, as some have say
here, and think by so say, they play and are same as like Heap Huge
Players.
> Bye
> Sanny
Cheerio, Phil
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 08:44:47
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
> Meanwhile, no commentary on the game itself? What is daft about such
> 'commentators' who just can't talk about chess, is that there really
> is no reason for them to exist here! Maybe chess politics would have
> them...? Or chess-computers is another non-chess group ;)
2 days back you said you are the strongest player on this newgroup.
You have beaten all the players here.
So all players here are weaker than you. So how can they analyze a
game of a player better than them?
Only way is using Fritz/ Rybka/ GetClub Chess.
> But if you can't tell from this gamescore the level of the
> participants, because your chess isn't up to it, what's the difference
> between this and even stronger play, which you can't understand
> either.
What is your Rating ? Can you beat the Master Level at GetClub without
taking help of any computer? Can you beat Taylor Kingston, Help Bot
and SamSloan?
> And if you can't understand it, why share your miserable opinions in
> public?
Because this group is made to share our opinions. If you do not want
opinions why post here? Well I am just 1200 rated player. So I do not
understand how good was the game you displayed above.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 06:58:38
From:
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 8:41=A0am, The Historian <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 10, 8:27=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
Much thanks again for Neil Brennan's notes. Naturally, it contains two
bits of bad news, by rating in 89 seems to be 2150, and secondly, the
reason I am sharing the game with Nick is that some 20 years before
this game was played, we both played it on the same team. In fact as
an English Yuf I beat the Cornish champion with it, who was then rated
210.
Meanwhile, no commentary on the game itself? What is daft about such
'commentators' who just can't talk about chess, is that there really
is no reason for them to exist here! Maybe chess politics would have
them...? Or chess-computers is another non-chess group ;)
But if you can't tell from this gamescore the level of the
participants, because your chess isn't up to it, what's the difference
between this and even stronger play, which you can't understand
either.
And if you can't understand it, why share your miserable opinions in
public?
Phil Innes
> > Horrible to re-introduce chess into ches misc - but I have a game or
> > two which might stand up to reasonable analysis. Unknown when I wrote
> > the 'annotation' below, maybe 15 years ago. I have some questions
> > about the game, especially one move which my opponent never played,
> > but OTB at the time I simply didn't see what to do.
>
> > The initial question though is Fritz's evaluation [or anyone's] of
> > move 14 g2-g4.
> > I also wonder how many people would play 11.. Be6-g8, but that is
> > Sokolski's idea - is it also Fritz's? Also, what should black do
> > instead of his move 25?
>
> > At the time the game was played, Fritz was just a gleam in someone's
> > eye - and in fact, if Neil Brennan had never demanded to see this game
> > I wouldn't have put it here originally, and it would be gone since I
> > don't have the game score otherwise.
>
> > Phil Innes
>
> > Innes : Bornholz
> > Amherst, Massacussetts
> > Date: 7/16/89
>
> > 1. b2-b4
> > I am playing a man who had a nasty habit of beating
> > grandmasters in his youth including Frank Marshall.
> > I thought I'd avoid the Ruy, the Marshall attack, and
> > practically everything else.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-e5
> > =A0 2. c1-b2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d7-d6
> > =A0 3. c2-c4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0b8-c6
> > unusual, the other Knight is usually developed first.
> > =A0 4. b4-b5
> > this pawn advance is called "the spike"
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0c6-e7
> > going to the K side to assault my King.
> > =A0 5. e2-e3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-g6
> > =A0 6. b1-c3 =A0 f7-f5
> > =A0 7. d1-b3
> > the idea is to sit on the light squared diagonal
> > and also observe the Q side.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g8-f6
> > =A0 8. f1-e2
> > Sokolski recommends this as a better square than d3.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 f8-e7
> > =A0 9. g1-f3
> > the game would take a different course if the pawn advanced
> > immediately.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0c8-e6
> > =A010. d2-d4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e5-e4
> > =A011. f3-g5
> > to "ask the question" to black's light squared bishop, the
> > alternative
> > is Nd2.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e6-g8
> > played immediately - I was wondering if Bob had been here before -
> > remarkably
> > this is still "book"
> > =A012. a2-a4
> > wrong timing, but thinking about a4-a5, and a breakthrough.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0f6-d7
> > =A013. g5-h3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a7-a5
> > now what? - we have a stand-off
> > the black light square bishop will return to the center
> > and black will castle and push the f pawn. I find a wild plan to
> > liquidate
> > black's center pawns. I discounted castling - no time, and this is
> > the
> > only
> > game I can remember of 30 moves or more that neither side moved their
> > kings!
> > =A014. g2-g4
> > radical.. If black does not take the pawn then there are remarkable
> > complications.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 f5xg4
> > =A015. e2xg4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d7-f6
> > =A016. g4-f5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g6-h4
> > =A017. f5xe4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0f6xe4
> > winning a pawn but releasing the pressure - black now has K side
> > attacking
> > chances, the two bishops,
> > =A018. c3xe4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d6-d5
> > =A019. e4-d2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d5xc4
> > =A020. b3-c2
> > avoiding some tactical shots
> > =A0 =A0 =A0g8-e6
> > =A021. h3-f4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e6-g4
> > =A022. c2xc4
> > the black center pawns have gone, and dark square tactical chances
> > increase.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 d8-d7
> > =A023. h1-g1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-f6
> > =A024. f4-d5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0f6-d8
> > =A025. e3-e4
> > why not? having attacked on the Q side, the K side, now the center.
> > The whole
> > game is insane -black still has lots of tactical chances
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 c7-c6
> > but I think this is a mistake - he needs to find the combinations
> > which give
> > his bishops =A0bite
> > =A026. d5-e3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g4-h5
> > apart from the white king having no luft and the easy incursion of
> > the
> > black
> > Queen I have no problems
> > =A027. b5xc6 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0b7xc6
> > =A028. d4-d5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a8-c8
> > not best - but white now owns the center and can strike anywhere
> > =A029. g1xg7
> > overlooked, this seals it up
> > =A0 =A0 =A0d7-h3
> > =A030. g7-g3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0h3xh2
> > I did calculate this, honestly
> > =A031. b2xh8 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0h2-h1+
> > =A032. e3-f1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0time.
>
> So much twaddle. I never had the misfortune to 'meet' P Innes until
> 2001. Meanwhile he'd posted the game in three segments, with different
> notes, back in 1998. Note that he described his rating in 1990 as
> 2150. This 'analysis', with an introductory note by P Innes, is from
> the "Calling Helmet" thread of July 1998.
>
> **************
> I have lost the e-mail address for Nick Cummings in nz. Can anyone
> oblige?
>
> Nick, I found the game score for the game against Robert Bornholz,
> played 29th March 1990 (leap year?) in Amherst Massachusetts. It is a
> "Great Crab" with both b4 and g4.
>
> Bob was the guy who beat Frank Marshall, perhaps beat Reschevsky (or
> drew?) plus some other notable. he was a venerable old fellow,
> possibly
> 75 years old or more. So I thought I would play something outrageous -
> but he was so cool about it.
>
> If you are in prison again, sorry. Leave the damn parrot alone. I will
> post the game score with brief, completely impartial comments if you
> are
> still at liberty.
>
> ps, our sickly friend did okay didn't he? or rather yor fren. I wonder
> if Anton has his picture on the sideboard?
>
> Phil
>
> ************
> ll post it a few moves at a time:
> Wh: moi, 2150 =A0Bl: Robert Bornholz 2136
> Amherst, Ma 3/29/90 (thats 29th March in American)
> Game/60
>
> 1. b4 e5
> 2. Bb2 d6
> 3. c4 Nc6
> well that was a surprise
> 4. b5 Ne7
> 5. e3 Ng6
> a new position for me, and I presume for Bob
> 6. Nc3 f5
> sure, now will he play e4 to bump my knight too
> 7. Qb3 (too early?)
> =85Nf6
> 8. Be2 Be7
> 9. Nf3 Be6
> of come on
> 10. d4 e5
> 11. Ng5
> I had only been playing Nd2 and thought I'd give this a whirl
> - I'll pause here, what did he do?
> Phil
>
> ***************
> I think that Helmet has limited access privileges at the moment. We
> were
> at:
>
> 10. d4 e5
> 11. Ng5
> ---
> I had only been playing Nd2 and thought I'd give this a whirl
> ---
> 11. =85Bg8
> very cool, in fact Sokolski agrees with this move, so does my computer
> at any depth setting.
>
> Its almost the middle game and I started to consider which of us could
> castle, and where, (LOL), then disgarded this idea as irrelevant. Bob
> didn't seem concerned either.
>
> 12. a4 =A0don't know why I did this, perhaps to play a5, lock Q side
> pawns
> and castle behind the wall.
> 12=85Nd7 now the other knight is off, it no longer observes h5 or g4
> 13. Nh3 (for f4)
> 13=85a5 Bob is playing on two wings also, we both ignore the center as
> irrelevant (LOL, sitting opposite him I remember him being totally
> impassive, as we both break every possible rule, don't move the pieces
> twice, play in the center, castle early, don't advance the pawns too
> far=85)
> 14. g4 and I achieve "The Great Crab" in a match game. I'd never
> played
> both b4 and g4 in an opening before.
> 14=85fg
> 15. Bxg4 Nf6
> 16. Bf5 hey! but I had to see this before playing g4
> so what does black do now?
> -------
> Phil
>
> ****************
> Helmet is still indisposed: here are the rest of the moves:
>
> after 16 Bf5 white has 34 mins remaining
> ---
> 16=85Nh4 black has 40 mins remaining
> 17. Bxe4 Nxe4
> 18. Nxe4 d5
> 19. Nd2 dc
> 20. Qc2 Be6
> 21. Nf4 Bg4
> 22. Qxc4 Qd7
> 23. Rg1 Bf6
> 24. Nd5 Bd1 white 19 mins, black 22 minutes
> 25. e4 c6
> I looked at some Be6 variations, and rather than give up a pawn I was
> intending to sac the knight and play Rxg7 etc, which leads to an
> endgame
> a piece down for three connected passed-pawns in the centre.
> 26. Ne3 Bh5
> 27. bc bc
> 28. d5 Rc8
> 29. Rxg7 Qh3
> an unusual set-up
> 30. Rg3 Qxh2
> 31. Bxh8 Qh1 ck
> 32. Nef1 and black lost on time.
> Phil- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2008 05:41:28
From: The Historian
Subject: Re: Greatest Games, etc
|
On Dec 10, 8:27=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> Horrible to re-introduce chess into ches misc - but I have a game or
> two which might stand up to reasonable analysis. Unknown when I wrote
> the 'annotation' below, maybe 15 years ago. I have some questions
> about the game, especially one move which my opponent never played,
> but OTB at the time I simply didn't see what to do.
>
> The initial question though is Fritz's evaluation [or anyone's] of
> move 14 g2-g4.
> I also wonder how many people would play 11.. Be6-g8, but that is
> Sokolski's idea - is it also Fritz's? Also, what should black do
> instead of his move 25?
>
> At the time the game was played, Fritz was just a gleam in someone's
> eye - and in fact, if Neil Brennan had never demanded to see this game
> I wouldn't have put it here originally, and it would be gone since I
> don't have the game score otherwise.
>
> Phil Innes
>
> Innes : Bornholz
> Amherst, Massacussetts
> Date: 7/16/89
>
> 1. b2-b4
> I am playing a man who had a nasty habit of beating
> grandmasters in his youth including Frank Marshall.
> I thought I'd avoid the Ruy, the Marshall attack, and
> practically everything else.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-e5
> =A0 2. c1-b2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d7-d6
> =A0 3. c2-c4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0b8-c6
> unusual, the other Knight is usually developed first.
> =A0 4. b4-b5
> this pawn advance is called "the spike"
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0c6-e7
> going to the K side to assault my King.
> =A0 5. e2-e3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-g6
> =A0 6. b1-c3 =A0 f7-f5
> =A0 7. d1-b3
> the idea is to sit on the light squared diagonal
> and also observe the Q side.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g8-f6
> =A0 8. f1-e2
> Sokolski recommends this as a better square than d3.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 f8-e7
> =A0 9. g1-f3
> the game would take a different course if the pawn advanced
> immediately.
> =A0 =A0 =A0c8-e6
> =A010. d2-d4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e5-e4
> =A011. f3-g5
> to "ask the question" to black's light squared bishop, the
> alternative
> is Nd2.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e6-g8
> played immediately - I was wondering if Bob had been here before -
> remarkably
> this is still "book"
> =A012. a2-a4
> wrong timing, but thinking about a4-a5, and a breakthrough.
> =A0 =A0 =A0f6-d7
> =A013. g5-h3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a7-a5
> now what? - we have a stand-off
> the black light square bishop will return to the center
> and black will castle and push the f pawn. I find a wild plan to
> liquidate
> black's center pawns. I discounted castling - no time, and this is
> the
> only
> game I can remember of 30 moves or more that neither side moved their
> kings!
> =A014. g2-g4
> radical.. If black does not take the pawn then there are remarkable
> complications.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 f5xg4
> =A015. e2xg4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d7-f6
> =A016. g4-f5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g6-h4
> =A017. f5xe4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0f6xe4
> winning a pawn but releasing the pressure - black now has K side
> attacking
> chances, the two bishops,
> =A018. c3xe4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d6-d5
> =A019. e4-d2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0d5xc4
> =A020. b3-c2
> avoiding some tactical shots
> =A0 =A0 =A0g8-e6
> =A021. h3-f4 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e6-g4
> =A022. c2xc4
> the black center pawns have gone, and dark square tactical chances
> increase.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 d8-d7
> =A023. h1-g1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0e7-f6
> =A024. f4-d5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0f6-d8
> =A025. e3-e4
> why not? having attacked on the Q side, the K side, now the center.
> The whole
> game is insane -black still has lots of tactical chances
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 c7-c6
> but I think this is a mistake - he needs to find the combinations
> which give
> his bishops =A0bite
> =A026. d5-e3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0g4-h5
> apart from the white king having no luft and the easy incursion of
> the
> black
> Queen I have no problems
> =A027. b5xc6 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0b7xc6
> =A028. d4-d5 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a8-c8
> not best - but white now owns the center and can strike anywhere
> =A029. g1xg7
> overlooked, this seals it up
> =A0 =A0 =A0d7-h3
> =A030. g7-g3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0h3xh2
> I did calculate this, honestly
> =A031. b2xh8 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0h2-h1+
> =A032. e3-f1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0time.
So much twaddle. I never had the misfortune to 'meet' P Innes until
2001. Meanwhile he'd posted the game in three segments, with different
notes, back in 1998. Note that he described his rating in 1990 as
2150. This 'analysis', with an introductory note by P Innes, is from
the "Calling Helmet" thread of July 1998.
**************
I have lost the e-mail address for Nick Cummings in nz. Can anyone
oblige?
Nick, I found the game score for the game against Robert Bornholz,
played 29th March 1990 (leap year?) in Amherst Massachusetts. It is a
"Great Crab" with both b4 and g4.
Bob was the guy who beat Frank Marshall, perhaps beat Reschevsky (or
drew?) plus some other notable. he was a venerable old fellow,
possibly
75 years old or more. So I thought I would play something outrageous -
but he was so cool about it.
If you are in prison again, sorry. Leave the damn parrot alone. I will
post the game score with brief, completely impartial comments if you
are
still at liberty.
ps, our sickly friend did okay didn't he? or rather yor fren. I wonder
if Anton has his picture on the sideboard?
Phil
************
ll post it a few moves at a time:
Wh: moi, 2150 Bl: Robert Bornholz 2136
Amherst, Ma 3/29/90 (thats 29th March in American)
Game/60
1. b4 e5
2. Bb2 d6
3. c4 Nc6
well that was a surprise
4. b5 Ne7
5. e3 Ng6
a new position for me, and I presume for Bob
6. Nc3 f5
sure, now will he play e4 to bump my knight too
7. Qb3 (too early?)
=85Nf6
8. Be2 Be7
9. Nf3 Be6
of come on
10. d4 e5
11. Ng5
I had only been playing Nd2 and thought I'd give this a whirl
- I'll pause here, what did he do?
Phil
***************
I think that Helmet has limited access privileges at the moment. We
were
at:
10. d4 e5
11. Ng5
---
I had only been playing Nd2 and thought I'd give this a whirl
---
11. =85Bg8
very cool, in fact Sokolski agrees with this move, so does my computer
at any depth setting.
Its almost the middle game and I started to consider which of us could
castle, and where, (LOL), then disgarded this idea as irrelevant. Bob
didn't seem concerned either.
12. a4 don't know why I did this, perhaps to play a5, lock Q side
pawns
and castle behind the wall.
12=85Nd7 now the other knight is off, it no longer observes h5 or g4
13. Nh3 (for f4)
13=85a5 Bob is playing on two wings also, we both ignore the center as
irrelevant (LOL, sitting opposite him I remember him being totally
impassive, as we both break every possible rule, don't move the pieces
twice, play in the center, castle early, don't advance the pawns too
far=85)
14. g4 and I achieve "The Great Crab" in a match game. I'd never
played
both b4 and g4 in an opening before.
14=85fg
15. Bxg4 Nf6
16. Bf5 hey! but I had to see this before playing g4
so what does black do now?
-------
Phil
****************
Helmet is still indisposed: here are the rest of the moves:
after 16 Bf5 white has 34 mins remaining
---
16=85Nh4 black has 40 mins remaining
17. Bxe4 Nxe4
18. Nxe4 d5
19. Nd2 dc
20. Qc2 Be6
21. Nf4 Bg4
22. Qxc4 Qd7
23. Rg1 Bf6
24. Nd5 Bd1 white 19 mins, black 22 minutes
25. e4 c6
I looked at some Be6 variations, and rather than give up a pawn I was
intending to sac the knight and play Rxg7 etc, which leads to an
endgame
a piece down for three connected passed-pawns in the centre.
26. Ne3 Bh5
27. bc bc
28. d5 Rc8
29. Rxg7 Qh3
an unusual set-up
30. Rg3 Qxh2
31. Bxh8 Qh1 ck
32. Nef1 and black lost on time.
Phil
|
|
