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Date: 15 Oct 2008 11:20:32
From: chessplayer
Subject: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.
Kramnik made a few slight mistakes in game 2 where he did have a
slight advantage. In move 26 he should have simply taken the pawn on
c4. Even later on move 29 he could have played Rh6 instead of Nd3.
Black could have pulled off a victory had he played more aggresively
like he started earlier on.

Also, when they decided to call it a draw it is actually a win for
white (but a very difficult one). If perfect moves are calculated
white could actually pull off a very difficult victory from the point
of calling it a draw on move 32. However, I still feel Kramnik with
his earlier aggresive moves could have pulled off a victory. But since
neither Kramnik pushed for a victory and later since neither Anand did
so I guess a draw in that sense was a fair result. At least this game
was more exciting than the boring first one.




 
Date: 16 Oct 2008 21:36:03
From: EZoto
Subject: Re: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.



>But since neither Kramnik pushed for a victory and later since neither Anand
>did so I guess a draw in that sense was a fair result.
>At least this game was more exciting than the boring first one.

It is pretty clear that Kramnik wants nothing to do with Anand in
tactics since he feels he is the better positional player and he
probably is. However sooner or later he is going to have to mix it up
so maybe he is biding time until that happens. Hope he isn't playing
for overtime. That would be pretty lousy.

EZoto




 
Date: 16 Oct 2008 00:19:34
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.
On Oct 16, 3:41=A0am, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 15, 7:20 pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Kramnik made a few slight mistakes in game 2 where he did have a
> > slight advantage. In move 26 he should have simply taken the pawn on
> > c4. Even later on move 29 he could have played Rh6 instead of Nd3.
> > Black could have pulled off a victory had he played more aggresively
> > like he started earlier on.
>
> After 26...Qxc4 then 27.Bxh6 would have resulted in a standard Stoke-
> Adams Attack and white would have won as quick as a Rumanian fart.

He should have taken c4 with the knight and not the queen, provided he
had played properly on move 25. Don't criticize unless you understand
what is written. If you don't understand at least ask with what he
should have taken c4.


 
Date: 16 Oct 2008 00:10:38
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.
On Oct 16, 5:17=A0am, Simon Krahnke <[email protected] > wrote:
> * Offramp <[email protected]> (00:41) schrieb:
>
> > On Oct 15, 7:20 pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Kramnik made a few slight mistakes in game 2 where he did have a
> >> slight advantage. In move 26 he should have simply taken the pawn on
> >> c4. Even later on move 29 he could have played Rh6 instead of Nd3.
> >> Black could have pulled off a victory had he played more aggresively
> >> like he started earlier on.
>
> > After 26...Qxc4 then 27.Bxh6 would have resulted in a standard Stoke-
> > Adams Attack and white would have won as quick as a Rumanian fart.
>
> I wonder in which groups these threads are on-topic. Certainly not
> rec.games.chess.computer.
>
> mfg, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 simon .... l

I did post in on rec.games.chess.computer but it may not have come on
it. I honestly feel (after analyzing the game after move 18 when white
plays Qe2), that it was clearly black's game from there onwards.
However, Kramnik let off the pressure and played it safe. Ironically
when they both agreed to a draw on move 32 it was just about a very
slight edge to Anand. But I guess the mental drain that occurs after
such a game you cannot blame Anand for not trying to push for a win.


 
Date: 16 Oct 2008 00:07:44
From: chessplayer
Subject: Re: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.
On Oct 16, 3:41=A0am, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 15, 7:20 pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Kramnik made a few slight mistakes in game 2 where he did have a
> > slight advantage. In move 26 he should have simply taken the pawn on
> > c4. Even later on move 29 he could have played Rh6 instead of Nd3.
> > Black could have pulled off a victory had he played more aggresively
> > like he started earlier on.
>
> After 26...Qxc4 then 27.Bxh6 would have resulted in a standard Stoke-
> Adams Attack and white would have won as quick as a Rumanian fart.

After 18 when white played qe2 it was black's game but Kramnik did not
play as he should have.
Even then he could have won it upto move 26 but he made a few minor
mistakes as to what he should have played. Later on when he was a pawn
down he could still have played c5 before white did so. Anyway, its my
opinion that after move 17 Qe3+ it was clearly black's game. If you
want we can go to a chess website and play from thereonwards using
whatever software to aid you.


 
Date: 16 Oct 2008 02:17:42
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.
* Offramp <[email protected] > (00:41) schrieb:

> On Oct 15, 7:20 pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Kramnik made a few slight mistakes in game 2 where he did have a
>> slight advantage. In move 26 he should have simply taken the pawn on
>> c4. Even later on move 29 he could have played Rh6 instead of Nd3.
>> Black could have pulled off a victory had he played more aggresively
>> like he started earlier on.
>
> After 26...Qxc4 then 27.Bxh6 would have resulted in a standard Stoke-
> Adams Attack and white would have won as quick as a Rumanian fart.

I wonder in which groups these threads are on-topic. Certainly not
rec.games.chess.computer.

mfg, simon .... l


  
Date: 16 Oct 2008 08:20:50
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.

"Simon Krahnke" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>* Offramp <[email protected]> (00:41) schrieb:
>
>> On Oct 15, 7:20 pm, chessplayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Kramnik made a few slight mistakes in game 2 where he did have a
>>> slight advantage. In move 26 he should have simply taken the pawn on
>>> c4. Even later on move 29 he could have played Rh6 instead of Nd3.
>>> Black could have pulled off a victory had he played more aggresively
>>> like he started earlier on.
>>
>> After 26...Qxc4 then 27.Bxh6 would have resulted in a standard Stoke-
>> Adams Attack and white would have won as quick as a Rumanian fart.
>
> I wonder in which groups these threads are on-topic. Certainly not
> rec.games.chess.computer.

I beg our pardons, but it is difficult always to assess what /is/ on topic
at chess.computer, since it seems to prefer to discuss abstractions.

That may seem to be a trite comment on the whole realm, but divorcing the
chess from the computer has often sems to me to be a pointless exercise -
for example, if what alan obrien writes about is true - can the computer
evaluate it?

Interestingly the most advanced chess conversations seek to reintegrate
man/machine - such as in Albert Albert's MAMS studies, and I obtained for Dr
A an introduction to Rybka's inventor, who certainly thought so!

From the chessic point of view - if the chess engine cannot see what we
people see, then its evaluation function is insufficient, and MAMS suggests
that this is because the engine still has great difficulty perceiving
exchangesw of material for other advantages. Without solving this aspect of
chess computing, then the subject is as stalled as it was 10 years ago, and
only processor speed and bigger databases and end-tables cause its advance -
in other words, things largely independent of the program intself.

Phil Innes

> mfg, simon .... l




   
Date: 16 Oct 2008 14:52:41
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.
Chess One <[email protected] > wrote:
> "Simon Krahnke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I wonder in which groups these threads are on-topic. Certainly not
>> rec.games.chess.computer.
>
> I beg our pardons, but it is difficult always to assess what /is/ on
> topic at chess.computer, since it seems to prefer to discuss
> abstractions.

It's very simple, Phil. If it's an article *about* computer chess,
it's on-topic in rgc.computer. If it isn't about computer chess, it's
off-topic, even if it uses analysis from a chess computer.

Analysis done by computer is off topic, unless the angle is why the
computer `thought' what it did. So, discussion about why all the
computers think that such and such a move was really bad is on-topic
-- the goal is to better understand computer chess. Discussion about
why Anand or Kramnik did or did not play such and such a move is
off-topic -- the goal is to better understand a game played by humans.

> That may seem to be a trite comment on the whole realm, but
> divorcing the chess from the computer has often sems to me to be a
> pointless exercise - for example, if what alan obrien writes about
> is true - can the computer evaluate it?

There is no attempt to divorce chess from computers. However, if one
is commenting on an Anand-Kramnik game, even using computer analysis
as a tool, this is no more on-topic in rgc.computer (I used Fritz!)
than it is on comp.os.windows (it was running under XP!).

> From the chessic point of view - if the chess engine cannot see what
> we people see, then its evaluation function is insufficient

A discussion along those lines would be entirely on-topic and welcome
in rgc.computer.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Swiss Erotic Chicken (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ farm animal but it's genuinely erotic
and made in Switzerland!


 
Date: 15 Oct 2008 15:41:51
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: In game 2 Kramnik had a slight advantage upto move 25.
On Oct 15, 7:20 pm, chessplayer <[email protected] > wrote:

> Kramnik made a few slight mistakes in game 2 where he did have a
> slight advantage. In move 26 he should have simply taken the pawn on
> c4. Even later on move 29 he could have played Rh6 instead of Nd3.
> Black could have pulled off a victory had he played more aggresively
> like he started earlier on.

After 26...Qxc4 then 27.Bxh6 would have resulted in a standard Stoke-
Adams Attack and white would have won as quick as a Rumanian fart.