| |
Main
Date: 01 Nov 2007 04:53:27
From: Andrew Usher
Subject: Is this checkmate known?
|
This is a common trap in the Guioco Pianissimo opening - I have used
it successfully; of course the first version I used was much longer,
but this is the essential. I give it if black falls victim; white can
also, of course, given that the symmetry of the board.
The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo. Then 6 B-KN5
O-O? 7 N-Q5 B-K3? - black should have done P-KR3, driving back the
bishop. Other 7th moves are no better, in particular B-KN5 is met by
white's P-KR3 later, moving the bishop back and giving the same
situation. Now the mate goes 8 NxN ch PxN 9 B-KR6 KR-K 10 N-KR4
anything 11 Q-KB3 anything 12 Q-KN3 ch K-KR (forced) 13 Q-KN7 mate.
Or, alternately, if black had played BxB, 13 B-KN7 ch K-KN (forced) 14
N-KB5 anything 15 N-KR6 mate is perhaps more elegant in giving mate
with a knight. Black can avoid this mate only by sacrificing his queen
(several ways).
Black's best move is probably 6 ... P-KR3, the Ruy Lopez defence, to
forestall the whole chain.
Is my analysis correct? Is there any way for black to avoid the
ultimate mate, without losing his queen, after the 7th move here?
Andrew Usher
|
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 02:32:54
From: Andrew Usher
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
On Nov 2, 3:20 am, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> > This is a common trap in the Giuoco Pianissimo opening - I have used
> > it successfully; of course the first version I used was much longer,
> > but this is the essential. I give it if black falls victim; white can
> > also, of course, given that the symmetry of the board.
>
> > The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo. Then 6 B-KN5
> > O-O? 7 N-Q5 B-K3? - black should have done P-KR3, driving back the
> > bishop. Other 7th moves are no better, in particular B-KN5 is met by
> > white's P-KR3 later, moving the bishop back and giving the same
> > situation. Now the mate goes 8 NxN ch PxN 9 B-KR6 KR-K 10 N-KR4
> > anything 11 Q-KB3 anything 12 Q-KN3 ch K-KR (forced) 13 Q-KN7 mate.
> > Or, alternately, if black had played BxB, 13 B-KN7 ch K-KN (forced) 14
> > N-KB5 anything 15 N-KR6 mate is perhaps more elegant in giving mate
> > with a knight. Black can avoid this mate only by sacrificing his queen
> > (several ways).
>
> > Black's best move is probably 6 ... P-KR3, the Ruy Lopez defence, to
> > forestall the whole chain.
>
> > Is my analysis correct? Is there any way for black to avoid the
> > ultimate mate, without losing his queen, after the 7th move here?
>
> > Andrew Usher
>
> Could you please fill in the missing moves. I do not know what you
> mean by "The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo"?
P-K4 N-KB3 N-QB3 B-QB4 P-Q3 for both sides, producing this position:
http://www.chessgames.com/p/66/665584.gif
Andrew Usher
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 02:20:24
From: samsloan
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
On Nov 1, 7:53 am, Andrew Usher <[email protected] > wrote:
> This is a common trap in the Guioco Pianissimo opening - I have used
> it successfully; of course the first version I used was much longer,
> but this is the essential. I give it if black falls victim; white can
> also, of course, given that the symmetry of the board.
>
> The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo. Then 6 B-KN5
> O-O? 7 N-Q5 B-K3? - black should have done P-KR3, driving back the
> bishop. Other 7th moves are no better, in particular B-KN5 is met by
> white's P-KR3 later, moving the bishop back and giving the same
> situation. Now the mate goes 8 NxN ch PxN 9 B-KR6 KR-K 10 N-KR4
> anything 11 Q-KB3 anything 12 Q-KN3 ch K-KR (forced) 13 Q-KN7 mate.
> Or, alternately, if black had played BxB, 13 B-KN7 ch K-KN (forced) 14
> N-KB5 anything 15 N-KR6 mate is perhaps more elegant in giving mate
> with a knight. Black can avoid this mate only by sacrificing his queen
> (several ways).
>
> Black's best move is probably 6 ... P-KR3, the Ruy Lopez defence, to
> forestall the whole chain.
>
> Is my analysis correct? Is there any way for black to avoid the
> ultimate mate, without losing his queen, after the 7th move here?
>
> Andrew Usher
Could you please fill in the missing moves. I do not know what you
mean by "The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo"?
Sam Sloan
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 01:11:55
From: Andrew Usher
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
On Nov 2, 12:59 am, Andrew Usher <[email protected] > wrote:
> Do you mean this edition:http://www.amazon.com/Chess-Strategy-Edward-Lasker/dp/0486205282/ref=...
> ?
>
> I'll consider it.
>
I found it on the Internet:
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/chsst10.txt
(this is the first edition of course, being out of copyright)
Lasker doesn't seem to know this line, because he says on
the Giuoco Piano "The steady development with ... 6. B-KKt5, B-K3
or Castles tends to a draw from the very first" (game #4), implying
that
castling is an acceptable move here - I am not, of course, claiming
Lasker would overlook the problem with it, just that he does not
discuss them here.
Andrew Usher
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 23:59:24
From: Andrew Usher
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
On Nov 2, 12:15 am, [email protected] wrote:
> Andrew Usher wrote:
> > On Nov 1, 5:35 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > > How about 10...N-K2 and 11...N-N3 ?
>
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Tonyy: [email protected] -http://tony.mountifield.org
>
> > > Fails to 11. BxB, and if 11. ... PxB 12. Q-N4+ N-N3 13. NxN.
>
> > 13. ... Q-Q2 14. N-KR4 dis ch K-KR, and white's attack is stopped but
> > he's
> > up a piece. Yes, I did not think last night before accepting Tony's
> > proposed
> > defence, I should surely have seen it.
>
> 13. ... Qd7 14. Nf8+ wins the Black Queen.
It does; but white is up a piece in any case as black can't
immediately
recapture.
> > > After 6. B-KN5 (the Canal Variation), 6. ... 0-0 has long been known
> > > as a blunder. The old main line 6. ... P-KR3 7. BxN QxB 8. N-Q5
> > > gives White a little advantage. Korchnoi gave up the Giuoco Pianissimo
> > > because of 6. ... N-QR4.
>
> > I corrected your move numbers here, careful.
>
> > Andrew Usher
>
> I must echo Ray Gordon's comment that this would be easier if you
> would learn algebraic notation.
OK, I normally think in descriptive notation, so I find it easier to
write.
> As I recall, Edward Lasker analyzed a
> very similar line arising from the Four Knights' Game in _Chess
> Strategy_. It's available on Amazon for under $5, and it's even in
> descriptive notation. Read a few books like that one, and then you'll
> have the basis for discussion.
Do you mean this edition:
http://www.amazon.com/Chess-Strategy-Edward-Lasker/dp/0486205282/ref=ed_oe_p/105-2768523-5087629
?
I'll consider it.
Andrew Usher
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 23:15:59
From:
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
Andrew Usher wrote:
> On Nov 1, 5:35 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > How about 10...N-K2 and 11...N-N3 ?
> >
> > > Cheers
> > > Tonyy: [email protected] -http://tony.mountifield.org
> >
> > Fails to 11. BxB, and if 11. ... PxB 12. Q-N4+ N-N3 13. NxN.
>
> 13. ... Q-Q2 14. N-KR4 dis ch K-KR, and white's attack is stopped but
> he's
> up a piece. Yes, I did not think last night before accepting Tony's
> proposed
> defence, I should surely have seen it.
13. ... Qd7 14. Nf8+ wins the Black Queen.
>
> > After 6. B-KN5 (the Canal Variation), 6. ... 0-0 has long been known
> > as a blunder. The old main line 6. ... P-KR3 7. BxN QxB 8. N-Q5
> > gives White a little advantage. Korchnoi gave up the Giuoco Pianissimo
> > because of 6. ... N-QR4.
>
> I corrected your move numbers here, careful.
>
> Andrew Usher
I must echo Ray Gordon's comment that this would be easier if you
would learn algebraic notation. As I recall, Edward Lasker analyzed a
very similar line arising from the Four Knights' Game in _Chess
Strategy_. It's available on Amazon for under $5, and it's even in
descriptive notation. Read a few books like that one, and then you'll
have the basis for discussion.
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 22:14:06
From: Andrew Usher
Subject: Re: Canal Variation
|
On Nov 1, 7:40 am, [email protected] wrote:
> > The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo.
> > Then 6 B-KN5 O-O? 7 N-Q5 B-K3? - black should have done
> > P-KR3, driving back the bishop. Other 7th moves are no
> > better, in particular B-KN5 is met by white's P-KR3 later,
> > moving the bishop back and giving the same situation.
> > Now the mate goes 8 NxN ch PxN 9 B-KR6 KR-K 10 N-KR4
> > anything 11 Q-KB3 anything 12 Q-KN3 ch K-KR (forced)
>
> Be careful with those "anything" moves.
>
> 10.... N-Q5?! 11.Q-KB3? NxQ ch
>
> 10.... K-R1 11.Q-KB3? N-Q5 12.Q-KN3? R-KN1 and Black wins
Obviously my analysis isn't meant to be complete and cover every
possible move, just the useful ones.
10. ... N-Q5 is met by simply taking one more move to bring around
the queen (Q-Q2-K3-KN3).
10. ... K-KR on the other hand does seem good; if then 11. N-KB5 black
must
take it, as it guards the mating square (11. ... BxB 12. Q-KN4 R-KN
13. B-KN7 ch RxB (forced) 14. QxR mate).
Thanks for looking at my analysis but I'd still like to know if
anyone's studied
this specific pattern, perhaps given it a name?
Andrew Usher
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 21:57:19
From: Andrew Usher
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
On Nov 1, 5:35 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> > How about 10...N-K2 and 11...N-N3 ?
>
> > Cheers
> > Tonyy: [email protected] -http://tony.mountifield.org
>
> Fails to 11. BxB, and if 11. ... PxB 12. Q-N4+ N-N3 13. NxN.
13. ... Q-Q2 14. N-KR4 dis ch K-KR, and white's attack is stopped but
he's
up a piece. Yes, I did not think last night before accepting Tony's
proposed
defence, I should surely have seen it.
> After 6. B-KN5 (the Canal Variation), 6. ... 0-0 has long been known
> as a blunder. The old main line 6. ... P-KR3 7. BxN QxB 8. N-Q5
> gives White a little advantage. Korchnoi gave up the Giuoco Pianissimo
> because of 6. ... N-QR4.
I corrected your move numbers here, careful.
Andrew Usher
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 02:09:34
From: Proginoskes
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
On Nov 1, 5:52 am, Don Stockbauer <[email protected] > wrote:
> Why not concentrate on a real game such as Reality rather than chess,
> which is sextillions of times more simple than it.
Really? Where can I download this Reality game from, then?
--- Christopher Heckman
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 16:35:42
From:
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
Tony Mountifield wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Andrew Usher <[email protected]> wrote:
> > This is a common trap in the Guioco Pianissimo opening - I have used
> > it successfully; of course the first version I used was much longer,
> > but this is the essential. I give it if black falls victim; white can
> > also, of course, given that the symmetry of the board.
> >
> > The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo. Then 6 B-KN5
> > O-O? 7 N-Q5 B-K3? - black should have done P-KR3, driving back the
> > bishop. Other 7th moves are no better, in particular B-KN5 is met by
> > white's P-KR3 later, moving the bishop back and giving the same
> > situation. Now the mate goes 8 NxN ch PxN 9 B-KR6 KR-K 10 N-KR4
> > anything 11 Q-KB3 anything 12 Q-KN3 ch K-KR (forced) 13 Q-KN7 mate.
> > Or, alternately, if black had played BxB, 13 B-KN7 ch K-KN (forced) 14
> > N-KB5 anything 15 N-KR6 mate is perhaps more elegant in giving mate
> > with a knight. Black can avoid this mate only by sacrificing his queen
> > (several ways).
>
> How about 10...N-K2 and 11...N-N3 ?
>
> Cheers
> Tonyy: [email protected] - http://tony.mountifield.org
Fails to 11. BxB, and if 11. ... PxB 12. Q-N4+ N-N3 12. NxN.
After 10. B-KN5 (the Canal Variation), 10. ... 0-0 has long been know
as a blunder. The old main line 10. ... P-KR3 11. BxN QxB 12. N-Q5
gives White a little advantage. Korchnoi gave up the Giuoco Pianissimo
because of 10 ... N-QR4.
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 16:52:26
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Canal Variation
|
Of course the mate is known. I've seen it in hundreds of games.
Concentrating on "traps" is the sure way to be a weak player forever.
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 06:40:48
From:
Subject: Canal Variation
|
> The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo.
> Then 6 B-KN5 O-O? 7 N-Q5 B-K3? - black should have done
> P-KR3, driving back the bishop. Other 7th moves are no
> better, in particular B-KN5 is met by white's P-KR3 later,
> moving the bishop back and giving the same situation.
> Now the mate goes 8 NxN ch PxN 9 B-KR6 KR-K 10 N-KR4
> anything 11 Q-KB3 anything 12 Q-KN3 ch K-KR (forced)
Be careful with those "anything" moves.
10.... N-Q5?! 11.Q-KB3? NxQ ch
10.... K-R1 11.Q-KB3? N-Q5 12.Q-KN3? R-KN1 and Black wins
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 05:52:12
From: Don Stockbauer
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
Why not concentrate on a real game such as Reality rather than chess,
which is sextillions of times more simple than it.
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 05:15:40
From: Andrew Usher
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
On Nov 1, 6:02 am, [email protected] (Tony Mountifield) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Andrew Usher <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > This is a common trap in the Guioco Pianissimo opening - I have used
> > it successfully; of course the first version I used was much longer,
> > but this is the essential. I give it if black falls victim; white can
> > also, of course, given that the symmetry of the board.
>
> > The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo. Then 6 B-KN5
> > O-O? 7 N-Q5 B-K3? - black should have done P-KR3, driving back the
> > bishop. Other 7th moves are no better, in particular B-KN5 is met by
> > white's P-KR3 later, moving the bishop back and giving the same
> > situation. Now the mate goes 8 NxN ch PxN 9 B-KR6 KR-K 10 N-KR4
> > anything 11 Q-KB3 anything 12 Q-KN3 ch K-KR (forced) 13 Q-KN7 mate.
> > Or, alternately, if black had played BxB, 13 B-KN7 ch K-KN (forced) 14
> > N-KB5 anything 15 N-KR6 mate is perhaps more elegant in giving mate
> > with a knight. Black can avoid this mate only by sacrificing his queen
> > (several ways).
>
> How about 10...N-K2 and 11...N-N3 ?
Ah, you're right. White of course would pin the knight with Q-KN3 but
couldn't
take it as two pawns are defending it.
Still, the mate is a nice trap.
Andrew Usher
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 08:04:02
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
> Is my analysis correct?
Your notation isn't even up-to-date. I doubt your analysis is either.
--
Ray Gordon, The ORIGINAL Lifestyle Seduction Guru
http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
Includes 29 Reasons Not To Be A Nice Guy
Ray's new "Project 5000" is here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/project-5000
This group will be restricted to 5,000 members. All new theory from the
creator of the PIVOT!
Don't rely on overexposed, mass-keted commercial seduction methods which
have been rendered worthless through mainstream media exposure. It really
is game over for community material. Beware of Milli Vanilli gurus who
stole their ideas from others!
http://moderncaveman.typepad.com
The Official Ray Gordon Blog
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 12:02:12
From: Tony Mountifield
Subject: Re: Is this checkmate known?
|
In article <[email protected] >,
Andrew Usher <[email protected] > wrote:
> This is a common trap in the Guioco Pianissimo opening - I have used
> it successfully; of course the first version I used was much longer,
> but this is the essential. I give it if black falls victim; white can
> also, of course, given that the symmetry of the board.
>
> The first 5 moves are the symmetrical Giuoco Pianissimo. Then 6 B-KN5
> O-O? 7 N-Q5 B-K3? - black should have done P-KR3, driving back the
> bishop. Other 7th moves are no better, in particular B-KN5 is met by
> white's P-KR3 later, moving the bishop back and giving the same
> situation. Now the mate goes 8 NxN ch PxN 9 B-KR6 KR-K 10 N-KR4
> anything 11 Q-KB3 anything 12 Q-KN3 ch K-KR (forced) 13 Q-KN7 mate.
> Or, alternately, if black had played BxB, 13 B-KN7 ch K-KN (forced) 14
> N-KB5 anything 15 N-KR6 mate is perhaps more elegant in giving mate
> with a knight. Black can avoid this mate only by sacrificing his queen
> (several ways).
How about 10...N-K2 and 11...N-N3 ?
Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Work: [email protected] - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: [email protected] - http://tony.mountifield.org
|
|
