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Main
Date: 25 Nov 2007 09:28:29
From: Chess One
Subject: Poisoned Pawn, anyone?
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When I am playing correspondence I like to adopt an idea from S.
Gerzadowicz - from Diary of a Chess Master - at various stages of the game,
what is my assessment of each side's chances? Here is perhaps the most
laboriously played poisoned pawn in history - as if Bilek had never seen it
before - I wonder if it is encountered very much these days by players in
this forum? I mean - we 'know' it is not a good idea to take the pawn, and
yet Fischer took it, against the best players in the world. After move 8,
would you rather be white or black?
Here is both the fastest and slowest playing times for any GM game I can
find:
Molasses Slow: At the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal, Istvan Bilek lost on time
against Bobby Fischer when his flag fell when making his 27th move.
Incredibly, while Bilek had used 2 and a half hours for his 27 moves,
Fischer had used only around 10 minutes for his moves in the game. Small
wonder that Bilek took so much time - Fischer played the notoriously
complicated poisoned pawn variation of the Sicilian defence. Fischer was
renowned as connoisseur of this system and was probably still following his
home preparation when the game ended. Here is the game:
Bilek,I - Fischer,R [B97]
Stockholm Interzonal Stockholm (5), 03.02.1962
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2
9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5 dxe5 11.fxe5 Nfd7 12.Bc4 Be7 13.Bxe6 0-0 14.0-0 Bxg5 15.Qxg5
h6 16.Qh4 Qxc3 17.Rxf7 Rxf7 18.Qd8+ Nf8 19.Bxf7+ Kxf7 20.Rf1+ Kg6 21.Rxf8
Bd7 22.Nf3 Qe3+ 23.Kh1 Qc1+ 24.Ng1 Qxc2 25.Rg8 Qf2 26.Rf8 Qxa2 27.Rf3 Kh7
0-1
Phil Innes
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Date: 25 Nov 2007 13:35:51
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Poisoned Pawn, anyone?
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On Nov 25, 2:11 pm, "Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote:
> "Taylor Kingston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> A difficult line to be sure, but it can't be all that bad. The list
> of those who have essayed it as Black reads like a "Who's Who" of 20th
> century chess: Fischer, Korchnoi, Bronstein, Geller, Gligoric, Euwe,
> Portisch, Najdorf, Panno, Stein, Hort, Ribli, Mecking, H=FCbner, Timman,
> Nunn, Tukmakov, Savon, Kasparov et al.
>
> **Of course it is not bad if you have great skill and knowledge. But my
> specific interest, as above, is if anyone here actually plays it [or has i=
t
> played against them regularly] and then how bad is it? What if you are a
> 1600-1700 player, eg, do you get away with it, or do you get into awful
> trouble because of white's advanced development? As a Sicilian 'punch' I
> would suspect it would have been more popular, but even after several
> hundred correspondance games, no-one choses it, not 1400 nor 2800
> opponenets. PI
Speaking from my own experience of about 35 years of USCF-rated
play, I recall very few if any club or correspondence players of my
acquaintance who played the poisoned pawn line. I'm referring both to
games I observed and games I played. The opportunity seldom arose in
my games, since I only played the Najdorf once as Black (back in 1973)
and tended not to allow it when playing White.
Perhaps Fischer's calamity with it in the 11th game of the 1972 WCh
match scared club players off. However, it may simply not have been
fashionable in my clubs; perhaps others have seen it often.
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Date: 26 Nov 2007 08:50:37
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Poisoned Pawn, anyone?
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"Taylor Kingston" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:0d324583-5794-4359-a779-23854c3fb81d@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 25, 2:11 pm, "Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote:
> "Taylor Kingston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> A difficult line to be sure, but it can't be all that bad. The list
> of those who have essayed it as Black reads like a "Who's Who" of 20th
> century chess: Fischer, Korchnoi, Bronstein, Geller, Gligoric, Euwe,
> Portisch, Najdorf, Panno, Stein, Hort, Ribli, Mecking, H�bner, Timman,
> Nunn, Tukmakov, Savon, Kasparov et al.
>
> **Of course it is not bad if you have great skill and knowledge. But my
> specific interest, as above, is if anyone here actually plays it [or has
> it
> played against them regularly] and then how bad is it? What if you are a
> 1600-1700 player, eg, do you get away with it, or do you get into awful
> trouble because of white's advanced development? As a Sicilian 'punch' I
> would suspect it would have been more popular, but even after several
> hundred correspondance games, no-one choses it, not 1400 nor 2800
> opponenets. PI
Speaking from my own experience of about 35 years of USCF-rated
play, I recall very few if any club or correspondence players of my
acquaintance who played the poisoned pawn line. I'm referring both to
games I observed and games I played. The opportunity seldom arose in
my games, since I only played the Najdorf once as Black (back in 1973)
and tended not to allow it when playing White.
**Yes - ain't it interesting. I wonder why anyone rated less than 1700 plays
the Sicilian at all [against anyone higher rated] since it is hard to find
anyone who knows the first 12 moves of any variation, and who does not
confound one system with another. I still confound my Pelikan, and indeed,
so did Yelena Dembo in our game, since she switched a move order on which I
failed to pounce]
**What always amazes me is the bi-monthly 'argument' presented in newsgroups
that 'chess is dead' while, on the contrary, most people can't get out of
the opening, except for the grace of god and a lucky rabbit's foot -
nevermind exhaust the non-learned aspects of the middle game, where you
actually get to think for yourself.
**I tried a few experiments in a moderated newsgroup [containing master
players] asking people if they knew the first 12 moves of the Traxler, eg?
And indeed if they would play it? They didn't know that, or mainline
Schliemann/Ruy, Max Lange [no wonder George K had so much fun with it!] nor
even the Black Diemer/Vienna var. I thought maybe these were too obscure
so tried Benko and [Mod]Benoni. Only with the ModB could some players go 12
moves, but couldn't do it in the Czech Benoni.
Perhaps Fischer's calamity with it in the 11th game of the 1972 WCh
match scared club players off. However, it may simply not have been
fashionable in my clubs; perhaps others have seen it often.
**To the degree that chess openings are fashion, then that may be a
justifiable 'perhaps', since by my own researches if you can't play 12 moves
of it [or even 8!~] then do club players chose openings like they are some
magic-bullet to penetrate the target, and so as to borrow a lot of the cache
of 'playing like Fischer'. That, at least, is psychologically a likely
factor, and [laugh] as good a choice as any.
//Phil Innes
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Date: 26 Nov 2007 12:32:41
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Poisoned Pawn, anyone?
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Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> Speaking from my own experience of about 35 years of USCF-rated
> play, I recall very few if any club or correspondence players of my
> acquaintance who played the poisoned pawn line.
I never did understand why Kasparov's opening DVD on the Najdorf
concentrated on the poisoned pawn lines, almost to the exclusion of
all else. I wonder how cynical it is to suspect that he had a big
pile of analysis and no other way to use it after he retired.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Revolting Disgusting Car (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a high-performance luxury car
but it'll turn your stomach and turn
your stomach!
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Date: 25 Nov 2007 07:06:59
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Poisoned Pawn, anyone?
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On Nov 25, 9:28 am, "Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote:
> When I am playing correspondence I like to adopt an idea from S.
> Gerzadowicz - from Diary of a Chess Master - at various stages of the game=
,
> what is my assessment of each side's chances? Here is perhaps the most
> laboriously played poisoned pawn in history - as if Bilek had never seen i=
t
> before - I wonder if it is encountered very much these days by players in
> this forum?
I can't speak for readers of this forum, but the Mega Database 2005
shows the line still being played quite a bit, and by very good
players. For example:
[Event "ARM-ROW m"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2004.06.11"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Vallejo Pons, Francisco"]
[Black "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B97"]
[WhiteElo "2666"]
[BlackElo "2817"]
[PlyCount "67"]
[EventDate "2004.06.10"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "6"]
[EventCountry "RUS"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.09.23"]
[WhiteTeam "ROW"]
[BlackTeam "ARM"]
[BlackTeamCountry "ARM"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4
Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. f5 Nc6 11. fxe6 fxe6 12. Nxc6 bxc6 13.
e5 dxe5 14. Bxf6 gxf6 15. Ne4 Qxa2 16. Rd1 Be7 17. Be2 O-O 18. O-O Ra7
19. Rf3 Kh8 20. Rg3 Rd7 21. Qh6 Rf7 22. Qh5 Rxd1+ 23. Bxd1 Qa5 24. Kf1
Qd8 25. Qxf7 Qxd1+ 26. Kf2 Qxc2+ 27. Kf3 Qd1+ 28. Kf2 Qc2+ 29. Ke3
Bc5+ 30. Nxc5 Qxc5+ 31. Kd2 Qf2+ 32. Kc3 Qd4+ 33. Kc2 Qf2+ 34. Kc3
1/2-1/2
[Event "EUCup 20th"]
[Site "Izmir"]
[Date "2004.10.06"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Azarov, Sergei"]
[Black "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B97"]
[WhiteElo "2556"]
[BlackElo "2813"]
[PlyCount "54"]
[EventDate "2004.10.03"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "7"]
[EventCountry "TUR"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.11.11"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4
Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. f5 Nc6 11. fxe6 fxe6 12. Nxc6 bxc6 13.
e5 dxe5 14. Bxf6 gxf6 15. Ne4 Qxa2 16. Rd1 Be7 17. Be2 O-O 18. O-O Ra7
19. Rf3 Kh8 20. Rg3 Rd7 21. Qh6 Rxd1+ 22. Bxd1 Rf7 23. Qh5 Qa5 24. Kf1
Qd8 25. Qxf7 Qxd1+ 26. Kf2 Qxc2+ 27. Ke3 Bc5+ 1/2-1/2
And here's an example close to home, Phil:
[Event "Vermont CCA op"] <<<<<<<<<
[Site "Stratton Mountain"] <<<<<<<<<<
[Date "2003.06.05"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Adamson, Robby"]
[Black "Shabalov, Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B97"]
[WhiteElo "2308"]
[BlackElo "2592"]
[PlyCount "110"]
[EventDate "2003.06.03"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2003.07.09"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4
Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. f5 Nc6 11. fxe6 fxe6 12. Nxc6 bxc6 13.
Be2 Be7 14. O-O Qa5 15. Kh1 Qd8 16. Bd3 O-O 17. e5 dxe5 18. Qe1 Rf7
19. Qxe5 Qd6 20. Qe2 Bd7 21. Ne4 Nxe4 22. Qxe4 Rxf1+ 23. Rxf1 g6 24.
Bf4 Qd5 25. Qe2 Qh5 26. Qd2 Rf8 27.
Bxa6 Qd5 28. Qe2 Qd4 29. Bg3 Rxf1+ 30. Qxf1 Qb2 31. Qd1 Qxa2 32. h3
Be8 33. Qe2 Qa1+ 34. Kh2 Bc5 35. Be5 Qc1 36. Bc4 Bg1+ 37. Kg3 Qg5+ 38.
Kf3 Bf7 39. Bf4 Qc5 40. Kg3 g5 41. Be5 h5 42. Kf3 h4 43. g3 hxg3 44.
Kxg3 Be3 45. Bc3 Kf8 46. Qd3 Ke7 47. Bb2 Ke8 48. Kg2 Bf4 49. Bf6 Bc7
50. Qe4 Bb6 51. h4 g4 52. Kg3 Qg1+ 53. Kf4 Bc7+ 54. Kg5 Qc1+ 55. Kxg4
Qg1+ 0-1
> I mean - we 'know' it is not a good idea to take the pawn,
A difficult line to be sure, but it can't be all that bad. The list
of those who have essayed it as Black reads like a "Who's Who" of 20th
century chess: Fischer, Korchnoi, Bronstein, Geller, Gligoric, Euwe,
Portisch, Najdorf, Panno, Stein, Hort, Ribli, Mecking, H=FCbner, Timman,
Nunn, Tukmakov, Savon, Kasparov et al.
> and
> yet Fischer took it, against the best players in the world. After move 8,
> would you rather be white or black?
>
> Here is both the fastest and slowest playing times for any GM game I can
> find:
> Molasses Slow: At the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal, Istvan Bilek lost on tim=
e
> against Bobby Fischer when his flag fell when making his 27th move.
> Incredibly, while Bilek had used 2 and a half hours for his 27 moves,
> Fischer had used only around 10 minutes for his moves in the game. Small
> wonder that Bilek took so much time - Fischer played the notoriously
> complicated poisoned pawn variation of the Sicilian defence. Fischer was
> renowned as connoisseur of this system and was probably still following hi=
s
> home preparation when the game ended. Here is the game:
>
> Bilek,I - Fischer,R [B97]
> Stockholm Interzonal Stockholm (5), 03.02.1962
>
> 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb=
2
> 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5 dxe5 11.fxe5 Nfd7 12.Bc4 Be7 13.Bxe6 0-0 14.0-0 Bxg5 15.Qx=
g5
> h6 16.Qh4 Qxc3 17.Rxf7 Rxf7 18.Qd8+ Nf8 19.Bxf7+ Kxf7 20.Rf1+ Kg6 21.Rxf8
> Bd7 22.Nf3 Qe3+ 23.Kh1 Qc1+ 24.Ng1 Qxc2 25.Rg8 Qf2 26.Rf8 Qxa2 27.Rf3 Kh7
> 0-1
>
> Phil Innes
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Date: 25 Nov 2007 14:11:00
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Poisoned Pawn, anyone?
|
"Taylor Kingston" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Nov 25, 9:28 am, "Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote:
> When I am playing correspondence I like to adopt an idea from S.
> Gerzadowicz - from Diary of a Chess Master - at various stages of the
> game,
> what is my assessment of each side's chances? Here is perhaps the most
> laboriously played poisoned pawn in history - as if Bilek had never seen
> it
> before - I wonder if it is encountered very much these days by players in
> this forum?
<. >
> I mean - we 'know' it is not a good idea to take the pawn,
A difficult line to be sure, but it can't be all that bad. The list
of those who have essayed it as Black reads like a "Who's Who" of 20th
century chess: Fischer, Korchnoi, Bronstein, Geller, Gligoric, Euwe,
Portisch, Najdorf, Panno, Stein, Hort, Ribli, Mecking, H�bner, Timman,
Nunn, Tukmakov, Savon, Kasparov et al.
**Of course it is not bad if you have great skill and knowledge. But my
specific interest, as above, is if anyone here actually plays it [or has it
played against them regularly] and then how bad is it? What if you are a
1600-1700 player, eg, do you get away with it, or do you get into awful
trouble because of white's advanced development? As a Sicilian 'punch' I
would suspect it would have been more popular, but even after several
hundred correspondance games, no-one choses it, not 1400 nor 2800
opponenets. PI
> and
> yet Fischer took it, against the best players in the world. After move 8,
> would you rather be white or black?
>
> Here is both the fastest and slowest playing times for any GM game I can
> find:
> Molasses Slow: At the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal, Istvan Bilek lost on
> time
> against Bobby Fischer when his flag fell when making his 27th move.
> Incredibly, while Bilek had used 2 and a half hours for his 27 moves,
> Fischer had used only around 10 minutes for his moves in the game. Small
> wonder that Bilek took so much time - Fischer played the notoriously
> complicated poisoned pawn variation of the Sicilian defence. Fischer was
> renowned as connoisseur of this system and was probably still following
> his
> home preparation when the game ended. Here is the game:
>
> Bilek,I - Fischer,R [B97]
> Stockholm Interzonal Stockholm (5), 03.02.1962
>
> 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2
> Qxb2
> 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5 dxe5 11.fxe5 Nfd7 12.Bc4 Be7 13.Bxe6 0-0 14.0-0 Bxg5
> 15.Qxg5
> h6 16.Qh4 Qxc3 17.Rxf7 Rxf7 18.Qd8+ Nf8 19.Bxf7+ Kxf7 20.Rf1+ Kg6 21.Rxf8
> Bd7 22.Nf3 Qe3+ 23.Kh1 Qc1+ 24.Ng1 Qxc2 25.Rg8 Qf2 26.Rf8 Qxa2 27.Rf3 Kh7
> 0-1
>
> Phil Innes
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