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Date: 16 Dec 2007 14:48:46
From: John Townsend
Subject: Staunton v. Cochrane, 1841-2
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It is stated in "The Westminster Papers" (1st August 1874), in an obituary
of Staunton thought to have been written by P.T. Duffy, that some of the
Staunton v. Cochrane games were played at the "Shades", in Leicester Square.
This information is repeated by Sergeant in "A Century of British Chess", p.
50.
But in the only two contemporary reports which I have noticed where the
venue is named, i.e. Chess Player's Chronicle, Vol. 2, p.24, and Vol. 3, p.
49, the venue is given by Staunton as Goode's Chess Rooms, which was at 39
Ludgate Hill.
It may well be that both places were used. Does anyone know of evidence,
other than the obituary in "The Westminster Papers", that the two of them
ever met at the "Shades" ?
Regards,
John Townsend,
Howard Staunton Research Project:
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk/index_files/Page324.htm
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Date: 18 Dec 2007 16:55:34
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Staunton v. Cochrane, 1841-2
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Most of the games given in the Chess Player's Chronicle don't seem to
specify a location. Staunton does mention going to the Shades
(actually Smith's Wine Shades) a couple of times, and gives that as
one of the chess resorts in London, but I don't know anything about
playing Cochrane there.
I actually am taking notes on these magazines, and thought these notes
would allow me to answer almost any question with a simple word
search; I didn't imagine writing down the location of the games!
Jerry Spinrad
On Dec 16, 8:48 am, "John Townsend" <[email protected] >
wrote:
> It is stated in "The Westminster Papers" (1st August 1874), in an obituary
> of Staunton thought to have been written by P.T. Duffy, that some of the
> Staunton v. Cochrane games were played at the "Shades", in Leicester Square.
> This information is repeated by Sergeant in "A Century of British Chess", p.
> 50.
>
> But in the only two contemporary reports which I have noticed where the
> venue is named, i.e. Chess Player's Chronicle, Vol. 2, p.24, and Vol. 3, p.
> 49, the venue is given by Staunton as Goode's Chess Rooms, which was at 39
> Ludgate Hill.
>
> It may well be that both places were used. Does anyone know of evidence,
> other than the obituary in "The Westminster Papers", that the two of them
> ever met at the "Shades" ?
>
> Regards,
>
> John Townsend,
> Howard Staunton Research Project:http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk/index_files/Page324.htm
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 18:31:51
From: John Townsend
Subject: Re: Staunton v. Cochrane, 1841-2
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> Most of the games given in the Chess Player's Chronicle don't seem to
> specify a location. Staunton does mention going to the Shades
> (actually Smith's Wine Shades) a couple of times, and gives that as
> one of the chess resorts in London, but I don't know anything about
> playing Cochrane there.
>
> I actually am taking notes on these magazines, and thought these notes
> would allow me to answer almost any question with a simple word
> search; I didn't imagine writing down the location of the games!
Thank you. I am very interested in the chess clubs in that era. The venues
where notable games were played are for me a very interesting part of chess
history, adding colour and helping to set events against the background of
the times. Sometimes I like to have a walk around London, visiting the
various sites of the old chess venues of the 1840s.
I am beginning to wonder whether most, or even all, of the Staunton v.
Cochrane games were, in fact, played at Goode's. Perhaps Duffy's statement
in the 1874 obituary is not quite correct - at least, his chronology seems
slightly confused. However, chess was certainly played at the Shades at
that date, so there seems no reason why that venue can't have been used for
some of the games. The Shades had been a much more important place for
chess only a few years earlier, but latterly Staunton had played much more
at Goode's, which he often "plugged" in his C.P.C. around that time.
The stake is said to have been a guinea a game, which would have represented
important income to Staunton, assuming that he was in his usual impecunious
state!
Best wishes,
John Townsend,
Howard Staunton Research Project:
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk/index_files/Page324.htm
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Date: 18 Dec 2007 16:34:33
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: Staunton v. Cochrane, 1841-2
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On Dec 16, 2:48 pm, "John Townsend" <[email protected] >
wrote:
There is a pub called Old Shades, on Whitehall. That isn't too far
from Leicester Square.
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 12:43:47
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Staunton v. Cochrane, 1841-2
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On Dec 20, 2:26 pm, Anders Thulin <[email protected] >
wrote:
> John Townsend wrote:
> > Thank you. In that era I think Shades was a generic name for an
> > establishment where you could go to drink wine, etc., so there were quite a
> > few around. The Shades where chess was played was at Leicester Square
> > itself.
>
> Smith's Royal Wine Shades, 5 Leicester Square, in a house that was named
> Savile House, but which has also been called Seville House. Wine shades were in
> general thought to attract low-life of various sorts, and this particular place
> is at the bottom of a list of chess places found in Kennedy's works on Fitzsnob,
> where it is denounced as a 'Chess Orcus of the Modern Babylon'. Would Staunton
> have played Cochrane there?
>
> But there also seems to have been something called the 'Saville Palace
> Wine, Concert and Exhibition Rooms' at which a visitor was 'agreeably
> astonished to find a company of the most refined description'. The astonishment
> may seem odd, unless the Orcan low-life was expected.
>
> It makes me wonder if someone might have confused the two places. Or perhaps
> the one evolved/devolved into the other?
While we are bringing up strange theories, I noticed that OE Borden is
listed in the American Chess Magazine as a chess correspondent from
Fall River, Massachusetts, which was also the home of Lizzie Borden.
There were a lot of Bordens in Fall River at the time; can anyone
figure out how closely these two might be related?
Jerry Spinrad
>
> Seehttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41120#s13
> for in-depth material on the address -- and I mean in-depth.
>
> I wonder if the Lisle Street mentioned there is *the* Lisle Street of
> unsavoury reputation? But that would be much later, of course. If it is, it
> would probably be where Neddie Seagoon failed to get his newly invented
> mangle-cum-aeroplane off the ground, but which most modern transcriptions
> render 'Lyle Street', thus destroying a minor joke. But only Goon Show
> devotees would bother about that.
>
> --
> Anders Thulin anders*thulin.name http://www.anders.thulin.name/
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 18:31:38
From: John Townsend
Subject: Re: Staunton v. Cochrane, 1841-2
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> There is a pub called Old Shades, on Whitehall. That isn't too far
> from Leicester Square.
Thank you. In that era I think Shades was a generic name for an
establishment where you could go to drink wine, etc., so there were quite a
few around. The Shades where chess was played was at Leicester Square
itself.
Best wishes,
John Townsend,
Howard Staunton Research Project:
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk/index_files/Page324.htm
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Date: 20 Dec 2007 20:26:02
From: Anders Thulin
Subject: Re: Staunton v. Cochrane, 1841-2
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John Townsend wrote:
> Thank you. In that era I think Shades was a generic name for an
> establishment where you could go to drink wine, etc., so there were quite a
> few around. The Shades where chess was played was at Leicester Square
> itself.
Smith's Royal Wine Shades, 5 Leicester Square, in a house that was named
Savile House, but which has also been called Seville House. Wine shades were in
general thought to attract low-life of various sorts, and this particular place
is at the bottom of a list of chess places found in Kennedy's works on Fitzsnob,
where it is denounced as a 'Chess Orcus of the Modern Babylon'. Would Staunton
have played Cochrane there?
But there also seems to have been something called the 'Saville Palace
Wine, Concert and Exhibition Rooms' at which a visitor was 'agreeably
astonished to find a company of the most refined description'. The astonishment
may seem odd, unless the Orcan low-life was expected.
It makes me wonder if someone might have confused the two places. Or perhaps
the one evolved/devolved into the other?
See http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41120#s13
for in-depth material on the address -- and I mean in-depth.
I wonder if the Lisle Street mentioned there is *the* Lisle Street of
unsavoury reputation? But that would be much later, of course. If it is, it
would probably be where Neddie Seagoon failed to get his newly invented
mangle-cum-aeroplane off the ground, but which most modern transcriptions
render 'Lyle Street', thus destroying a minor joke. But only Goon Show
devotees would bother about that.
--
Anders Thulin anders*thulin.name http://www.anders.thulin.name/
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Date: 21 Dec 2007 19:27:52
From: John Townsend
Subject: Re: Staunton v. Cochrane, 1841-2
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"Anders Thulin" wrote (snipped)
> Smith's Royal Wine Shades, 5 Leicester Square, in a house that was named
> Savile House, but which has also been called Seville House.
This is the place. It was in the basement.
>Wine shades were in
> general thought to attract low-life of various sorts, and this particular
> place
> is at the bottom of a list of chess places found in Kennedy's works on
> Fitzsnob,
> where it is denounced as a 'Chess Orcus of the Modern Babylon'. Would
> Staunton
> have played Cochrane there?
It would have been plenty good enough for Staunton, but Cochrane was a
barrister, so who knows? They may have played most of their games at
Goode's.
It seems that in those days the owners of chess establishments had a bad
track record as regards solvency, as a glance at the London Gazette will
reveal. Huttman spent quite a while at Her Majesty's Pleasure in Whitecross
Street - a tyr to the cause of chess! Edward Lowe (Staunton's opponent
in 1847) suffered a similar fate in 1843 - occupation given as formerly an
assistant at a chess club!
Best wishes,
John Townsend,
Howard Staunton Research Project:
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk/index_files/Page324.htm
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