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Main
Date: 11 Dec 2007 11:24:09
From: Chess One
Subject: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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For Wlod, on his recent commentary here on the style of a player:
When I asked k Taimanov to compare musical style with Great chess
players, he replied:-
Well, for me the resemblance between Capablanca and Mozart is absolutely
evident. I would compare Lasker with Beethoven, and Steinitz with Bach.
Alekhine with his wealth of ideas and sense of harmony is akin to
Rachmaninoff. Smyslov's harmony is closer to that of Chaikovsky's. Fischer
is as monumental as Liszt. Tal reminds me of Paganini - the same
self-abandon and fatalism. Botvinnik is associated for me with Wagner.
Karpov's chess is as simple and as complicated as Prokofiev's music.
Kasparov with his dynamic play brings to mind Shostakovich and his
symphonies..."
Of himself he said: "As to my style, by comparison to names of great
composers I feel an involuntary certain shyness. But, probably, a parallel
with creativity of Frederic Chopin is the closest."
---
I have just sent recently-returned-from-Siberia Mickey Adams, a set of
question, with the above as preamble, and with this one about himself:
So! If Tony Miles was John Lennon [agree?]: Who is Mickey Adams?
Phil Innes
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Date: 16 Dec 2007 05:42:46
From: The Historian
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 16, 4:13 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 15, 6:35 am, The Historian <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Chopin, Wieniawski, and Moszkowski come to mind from the nineteenth
> > century. Penderecki, G=F3recki, Lutos=B3awski, Szymanowski, and Paderews=
ki
> > are just a few of the 20th century names of note. One could argue over
> > Paderewski as a 20th century composer, since much of his music is 19th
> > century in feeling. Incidentally Paderewski served as Prime Minister
> > of Poland for a period of time.
>
> > My apologies for any odd spellings above - I didn't want to go hunting
> > through my CD collection to check names on the jewel cases, so I took
> > the names above from Wikipedia.
>
> Your spelling is fine. Only Lutos=F9awski, because of the
> special Polish letter "L slashed", exactly in the middle
> of his name, didn't show well. Fonts still c ause peoblems.
>
> Lutos=F9awski, Penderecki and G=F3recki were among
> leading classical, avangarde compositors (the
> altter two were born within a few days apart). Gorecki's
> composition was high on the pop charts in UK!
I've had the Gorecki symphony that made "the charts", and got rid of
it for some reason. Likewise Penderecki - too 'modern' for my tastes
at the time. Perhaps I should try again. Lutos=F9awski is represented
in my collection by a recording of his Concerto for Orchestra,
Christoph von Dohn=E1nyi conducting the Cleveland Orchestra. It's paired
with Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. I may still have a CD of the
Double Concerto for Oboe and Harp, with Michael Gielen conducting the
Cincinnati Symphony - if I didn't cull it. (What is it about Ohio and
Lutos=F9awski?
> On the day of my emigration from Poland, my friends
> gave me a (long play) record by Penderecki. Half a year
> later, in Ann Arbor, I made friends with a UM bus driver,
> who played in a local band, known for utilizing old instruments,
> and for playing old pieces (pre-Bach). Nevertheless he was
> also very enthusiastic about the modern classical music, and
> was especially taken by Penderecki. Thus I gave him my record,
> since he could enjoy it and appreciate even more than I could.
The Naxos label seems to be recording everything these days, including
Lutos=F9awski and Penderecki.with the Polish National Symphony Orchestra
and their music director Antoni Wit. Naxos is budget to mid-price
label, so you could probably easily replace your LP with something in
modern technology and sound.
> These days, as I have heard, there is a revival and reappraisal
> of Stanis=F9aw Moniuszko's operas and songs. He was highly
> regarded in his own time, then somewhat less later, but now
> the opinion about his work is mre appreciative again.
I forgot to include Godowsky in my list of noted Polish composers.
Although he was more of an arranger and show-off, at least as far as
my CDs go - he put whipped cream on top of everyone's music, including
Chopin's. I can't imagine rewriting Chopin to make it flashier, but he
did.
And speaking of the piano, I just discovered the composer of that
nineteenth century salon weeper The Maiden's Prayer was Polish. I
forgive you, Wlod. :-)
Snipped.
>
> Thank you, best regards,
>
> Wlod
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Date: 16 Dec 2007 01:13:38
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 15, 6:35 am, The Historian <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Chopin, Wieniawski, and Moszkowski come to mind from the nineteenth
> century. Penderecki, G=F3recki, Lutos=B3awski, Szymanowski, and Paderewski=
> are just a few of the 20th century names of note. One could argue over
> Paderewski as a 20th century composer, since much of his music is 19th
> century in feeling. Incidentally Paderewski served as Prime Minister
> of Poland for a period of time.
>
> My apologies for any odd spellings above - I didn't want to go hunting
> through my CD collection to check names on the jewel cases, so I took
> the names above from Wikipedia.
Your spelling is fine. Only Lutos=F9awski, because of the
special Polish letter "L slashed", exactly in the middle
of his name, didn't show well. Fonts still c ause peoblems.
Lutos=F9awski, Penderecki and G=F3recki were among
leading classical, avangarde compositors (the
altter two were born within a few days apart). Gorecki's
composition was high on the pop charts in UK!
On the day of my emigration from Poland, my friends
gave me a (long play) record by Penderecki. Half a year
later, in Ann Arbor, I made friends with a UM bus driver,
who played in a local band, known for utilizing old instruments,
and for playing old pieces (pre-Bach). Nevertheless he was
also very enthusiastic about the modern classical music, and
was especially taken by Penderecki. Thus I gave him my record,
since he could enjoy it and appreciate even more than I could.
These days, as I have heard, there is a revival and reappraisal
of Stanis=F9aw Moniuszko's operas and songs. He was highly
regarded in his own time, then somewhat less later, but now
the opinion about his work is mre appreciative again.
Switching to trivia, the King of Swing's parents came
to the USA from Poland.
(BTW, I didn't see any point in answering that troll raylopez99
or whatever his snout is).
Thank you, best regards,
Wlod
**********************
***
*
a note
-----------------------------------
the night rain
and Chopin
fall onto
my comforter
and smell
good
so good
the street light
explores my eyes
searches for my brain
but my brain
is dead
so dead
=3D
=3D
wh (c)
1992-06-02
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Date: 15 Dec 2007 08:15:22
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 15, 6:35 am, The Historian <[email protected] > wrote:
> Chopin, Wieniawski, and Moszkowski come to mind from the nineteenth
> century. Penderecki, G=F3recki, Lutos=B3awski, Szymanowski, and Paderewski=
> are just a few of the 20th century names of note. One could argue over
> Paderewski as a 20th century composer, since much of his music is 19th
> century in feeling. Incidentally Paderewski served as Prime Minister
> of Poland for a period of time.
>
> My apologies for any odd spellings above - I didn't want to go hunting
> through my CD collection to check names on the jewel cases, so I took
> the names above from Wikipedia.
You're good. THe only name I recognize is Chopin, I think he played
the blues on the piano (in classical style of course).
RL
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Date: 15 Dec 2007 06:35:33
From: The Historian
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 13, 3:09 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 12, 3:49 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > The only classical music I have is a CD
> > > of 25 pop classical favorites--
>
> > You called me a "dumb Pole". I may be the
> > dumbest of all Poles, but you are still a zillion
> > times dumber than me.
>
> You can't prove that, dumbo. Name ONE Polish composer of note. Just
> ONE. That somebody outside your village has heard of. THe Polish
> Pokka by Lawrence Welk's orchastra is the only polish song I've ever
> heard that was decent.
Chopin, Wieniawski, and Moszkowski come to mind from the nineteenth
century. Penderecki, G=F3recki, Lutos=B3awski, Szymanowski, and Paderewski
are just a few of the 20th century names of note. One could argue over
Paderewski as a 20th century composer, since much of his music is 19th
century in feeling. Incidentally Paderewski served as Prime Minister
of Poland for a period of time.
My apologies for any odd spellings above - I didn't want to go hunting
through my CD collection to check names on the jewel cases, so I took
the names above from Wikipedia.
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Date: 14 Dec 2007 13:52:38
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 14, 1:04 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
>
> And be it computer science, music or even a flamebait,
> an idiot like Ray Lopez always sounds like a primitive
> idiot like Ray Lopez.
>
> Satisfied?
Yes, you're right for once.
RL
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Date: 14 Dec 2007 01:04:01
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 14, 12:16 am, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 13, 10:26 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)" wrote
about Ray Lopez or whatever his snout:
> > And be it computer science or music or whatever
> > subject, a primitive idiot like you always sounds
> > like a primitive idiot like you.
>
> Because this is flamebait, Einstein.
And be it computer science, music or even a flamebait,
an idiot like Ray Lopez always sounds like a primitive
idiot like Ray Lopez.
Satisfied?
Wlod
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Date: 14 Dec 2007 00:16:56
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 13, 10:26 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Not to you. Because you are too stupid.
>
> > Name ONE Polish composer of note. Just
> > ONE.
>
> A rose under any name smells like a rose.
>
That's Skakespeare dumbo.
> And be it computer science or music or whatever
> subject, a primitive idiot like you always sounds
> like a primitive idiot like you.
>
Because this is flamebait, Einstein.
BTW I didn't know Chopin was Polish. Thanks Phil Innes.
RL
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Date: 13 Dec 2007 20:50:50
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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Petrosian is Stockhausen.
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Date: 13 Dec 2007 19:26:40
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 13, 12:09 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 12, 3:49 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> you are still a zillion
> times dumber than me.
>
> You can't prove that, [...]
Not to you. Because you are too stupid.
> Name ONE Polish composer of note. Just
> ONE.
A rose under any name smells like a rose.
And be it computer science or music or whatever
subject, a primitive idiot like you always sounds
like a primitive idiot like you.
> Recently I tried to sing the Polish anthem to a Polish worker
> here...
And he stuffed you through your asshole with a cactus
during the first stanza, and with a hedgehog during the
refrain, But a dumbass like you likes it too much. next
time he will make you swallow an umbrella, and then he will
open it. Now crawl back to your hole and keep practicing
some simpler tunes there, till you learn them.
Ugh,
Wlod
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Date: 13 Dec 2007 12:09:52
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 12, 3:49 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> > The only classical music I have is a CD
> > of 25 pop classical favorites--
>
> You called me a "dumb Pole". I may be the
> dumbest of all Poles, but you are still a zillion
> times dumber than me.
You can't prove that, dumbo. Name ONE Polish composer of note. Just
ONE. That somebody outside your village has heard of. THe Polish
Pokka by Lawrence Welk's orchastra is the only polish song I've ever
heard that was decent.
Recently I tried to sing the Polish anthem to a Polish worker
here...the guy was so dumb (or stoned) he didn't know what I was
saying. He has a cute daughter though...wonder if I can shag her...18
years old.
RL
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Date: 13 Dec 2007 16:54:25
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
"raylopez99" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:8fdfceef-3885-45c5-8498-5fb9f0e5accf@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 12, 3:49 pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > The only classical music I have is a CD
>> > of 25 pop classical favorites--
>>
>> You called me a "dumb Pole". I may be the
>> dumbest of all Poles, but you are still a zillion
>> times dumber than me.
>
> You can't prove that, dumbo. Name ONE Polish composer of note. Just
> ONE. That somebody outside your village has heard of. THe Polish
> Pokka by Lawrence Welk's orchastra is the only polish song I've ever
> heard that was decent.
Chopin was quite good.
> Recently I tried to sing the Polish anthem to a Polish worker
> here...the guy was so dumb (or stoned) he didn't know what I was
> saying. He has a cute daughter though...wonder if I can shag her...18
> years old.
Improbably. You are English? I find foreigners don't often understand
English people's English, so you better check out if he didn't understand
you for another reason.
[hint] this may not be other people's fault,
You can't spell nor enunciate simple words. 'Pokka' and 'orchastra' :)))
give us all a breakestra!
Phil Innes
> RL
>
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Date: 13 Dec 2007 12:07:16
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 12, 1:44 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> Bobby Fischer - Michael Jackson -- because both were once
> tremendously popular and successful, but both imploded into
> ignominious isolation.
Thanks for that key to why the pop stars relate to the chess stars.
For a minute I thought it was based on habits or physical appearances
(i.e., weird = weird).
RL
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Date: 13 Dec 2007 11:13:15
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
On Dec 13, 4:44 am, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 12, 9:44 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 12, 4:22 pm, "J.D. Walker" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Morphy - Eddie Cochran -- because both were seminal early
> > influences, and both died young (Morphy dying in effect as far as
> > chess was concerned; Cochran dying in fact)
>
> The cataclysm of both careers happened in England.
A good point. Buddy Holly might be another Morphy parallel, perhaps
better than Cochran.
> > Steinitz - Muddy Waters -- because both developed new styles and
> > were tremendously influential to later generations.
>
> Or Louis Armstrong?
Yes, pretty good, actually. Definitely not alike personality-wise,
though. But then neither was Waters much either.
> > Lasker - Frank Zappa -- because both had wide-ranging intelligence
> > and were highly articulate. Also neither was at all easy to imitate.
>
> Very good!
>
> > Capablanca - Elvis -- because he was as close as chess has come to a
> > sex symbol.
>
> Robert Johnson?
Johnson was certainly a fine guitarist, songwriter, and blues
singer, a major musical influence on everyone from Eric Clapton on
down to Robert Cray, but I've never thought of him as a sex symbol
(though I hear he did get around!).
> > Alekhine - Jim Morrison -- Both were brilliant but self-destructive,
> > and very fond of drink.
>
> Howlin' Wolf.
Can't say I'm too familiar with his life or work. But I was a very
strong Doors fan. Did the Doors record any Howlin' Wolf songs? "Back
Door Man" comes to mind, but I'm not sure he wrote it.
> > Nimzovitch - Captain Beefheart -- both were brilliantly original,
> > eccentric, and widely misunderstood.
>
> Another good one - there is the Zappa relationship as well.
>
> > Tal - Jimi Hendrix -- simply for the fiery brilliance both
> > exhibited.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> > Bobby Fischer - Michael Jackson -- because both were once
> > tremendously popular and successful, but both imploded into
> > ignominious isolation.
>
> Both seem to have negated their ancestral roots.
Yes, another good point.
> Also:
> Anand: George Harrison
> This is so brilliant, so incontestable, that I am awarding myself a
> gold medal.
Well, I guess we would have to concede George at least "honorary
Indian" status.
>
> Kasparov: Also Frank Zappa
Somehow Bono (of U2) comes more strongly to mind, now that Kasparov
has turned his attention more to politics.
> Nigel Short: Nigel Short
Hmmmm. How about Richie Blackmore (tempermental Deep Purple
guitarist)?
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Date: 13 Dec 2007 01:44:12
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
On Dec 12, 9:44 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 12, 4:22 pm, "J.D. Walker" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Morphy - Eddie Cochran -- because both were seminal early
> influences, and both died young (Morphy dying in effect as far as
> chess was concerned; Cochran dying in fact)
The cataclysm of both careers happened in England.
> Steinitz - Muddy Waters -- because both developed new styles and
> were tremendously influential to later generations.
Or Louis Armstrong?
> Lasker - Frank Zappa -- because both had wide-ranging intelligence
> and were highly articulate. Also neither was at all easy to imitate.
Very good!
> Capablanca - Elvis -- because he was as close as chess has come to a
> sex symbol.
Robert Johnson?
> Alekhine - Jim Morrison -- Both were brilliant but self-destructive,
> and very fond of drink.
Howlin' Wolf.
> Nimzovitch - Captain Beefheart -- both were brilliantly original,
> eccentric, and widely misunderstood.
Another good one - there is the Zappa relationship as well.
> Tal - Jimi Hendrix -- simply for the fiery brilliance both
> exhibited.
Fair enough.
> Bobby Fischer - Michael Jackson -- because both were once
> tremendously popular and successful, but both imploded into
> ignominious isolation.
Both seem to have negated their ancestral roots.
Also:
Anand: George Harrison
This is so brilliant, so incontestable, that I am awarding myself a
gold medal.
Kasparov: Also Frank Zappa
Nigel Short: Nigel Short
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 16:13:17
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
On Dec 12, 1:03 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Why must all the analogies be to classical artists?
> How about other genres? Some suggestions:
>
> Morphy -- Eddie Cochran
> Steinitz -- Muddy Waters
> Lasker -- Frank Zappa
or
Lasker -- Stravinsky; (sorry for a non-pop)
> Capablanca -- Elvis
I'[ve compared Tal to Little Richard. I would compare
also Rubinstein to Little Richard, but for a different
reason. I like your comparison Of Elvis-the king to
Capa, in particular because both were sweet, while
Little Richard was more profound and original; and
so was Rubinstein when compared to Capablanca.
Elvis and Capablanca enjoyed all the success but
artistically Little Richard and Rubinstein were geater.
> Alekhine -- Jim Morrison
> Nimzovitch -- Captain Beefheart
> Tal -- Jimi Hendrix
> Judit Polgar -- Janis Joplin
> Bobby Fischer -- Michael Jackson
I was partly teasing about Fischer-Streisand,
but only partially).
Here comes more:
Karpov -- Tom Jones
Anand -- Paul McCartney
Shirov -- Madonna
Regards,
Wlod
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 15:54:09
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
On Dec 12, 1:03 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> Why must all the analogies be to classical artists?
(I've compared Kramnik's game to jazz).
> How about other genres? Some suggestions:
>
> Capablanca -- Elvis
Makes sense.
> Tal -- Jimi Hendrix
I see: Tal -- Little Richard
> Bobby Fischer -- Michael Jackson
No way. I'd say:
Bobby Fischer -- Barbra Streisand
Regards,
Wlod
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 15:49:33
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
On Dec 12, 10:49 am, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 12, 12:53 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Since Philidor time, Taimanov must be the the most qualified
>
> Philidor looks like Mozart, at least in profile. Smyslov was a
> pianist, like Taimanov.
No. Smyslov is an amateur opera singer
(at one time he was considering an opera
singer career).
> The only classical music I have is a CD
> of 25 pop classical favorites--
You called me a "dumb Pole". I may be the
dumbest of all Poles, but you are still a zillion
times dumber than me.
Wlod
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 13:44:26
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
On Dec 12, 4:22 pm, "J.D. Walker" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Taylor Kingston wrote:
> > On Dec 12, 1:49 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Dec 12, 12:53 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Since Philidor time, Taimanov must be the the most qualified
> >> Philidor looks like Mozart, at least in profile. Smyslov was a
> >> pianist, like Taimanov. Fischer went to the same American high school
> >> as Barbara Streisand.
>
> >> The only classical music I have is a CD of 25 pop classical favorites--
> >> including Walter Murphy's A Fifth of Beethoven, which is very good
> >> piece IMO.
>
> >> RL
>
> > Why must all the analogies be to classical artists? How about other
> > genres? Some suggestions:
>
> > Morphy -- Eddie Cochran
> > Steinitz -- Muddy Waters
> > Lasker -- Frank Zappa
> > Capablanca -- Elvis
> > Alekhine -- Jim Morrison
> > Nimzovitch -- Captain Beefheart
> > Tal -- Jimi Hendrix
> > Judit Polgar -- Janis Joplin
> > Bobby Fischer -- Michael Jackson
>
> If we really must, how about this direction...
>
> Morphy -- Plato
> Steinitz -- Dante
> Lasker -- Chaucer
> Capablanca -- TS Elliot
> Nimzovich -- Ezra Pound
> Alekhine -- James Joyce
> Fischer -- R Crumb
> Susan Polgar -- Virginia Woolf
> Karpov -- Hemingway
> Kasparov -- Shakespeare
> Kramnik -- Truman Capote
I think Reshevsky would be a much better fit with Capote; there's at
least a physical resemblance. Your list seems rather random; the
analogies are not apparent to me. I was trying for at least some
correspondence:
Morphy - Eddie Cochran -- because both were seminal early
influences, and both died young (Morphy dying in effect as far as
chess was concerned; Cochran dying in fact)
Steinitz - Muddy Waters -- because both developed new styles and
were tremendously influential to later generations.
Lasker - Frank Zappa -- because both had wide-ranging intelligence
and were highly articulate. Also neither was at all easy to imitate.
Capablanca - Elvis -- because he was as close as chess has come to a
sex symbol.
Alekhine - Jim Morrison -- Both were brilliant but self-destructive,
and very fond of drink.
Nimzovitch - Captain Beefheart -- both were brilliantly original,
eccentric, and widely misunderstood.
Tal - Jimi Hendrix -- simply for the fiery brilliance both
exhibited.
Judit Polgar - Janis Joplin -- an obvious choice, two women who
succeeded with male-like swagger, Janis on the stage, Judit on the
board.
Bobby Fischer - Michael Jackson -- because both were once
tremendously popular and successful, but both imploded into
ignominious isolation.
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 13:03:04
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
On Dec 12, 1:49 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 12, 12:53 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Since Philidor time, Taimanov must be the the most qualified
>
> Philidor looks like Mozart, at least in profile. Smyslov was a
> pianist, like Taimanov. Fischer went to the same American high school
> as Barbara Streisand.
>
> The only classical music I have is a CD of 25 pop classical favorites--
> including Walter Murphy's A Fifth of Beethoven, which is very good
> piece IMO.
>
> RL
Why must all the analogies be to classical artists? How about other
genres? Some suggestions:
Morphy -- Eddie Cochran
Steinitz -- Muddy Waters
Lasker -- Frank Zappa
Capablanca -- Elvis
Alekhine -- Jim Morrison
Nimzovitch -- Captain Beefheart
Tal -- Jimi Hendrix
Judit Polgar -- Janis Joplin
Bobby Fischer -- Michael Jackson
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 13:22:49
From: J.D. Walker
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
|
Taylor Kingston wrote:
> On Dec 12, 1:49 pm, raylopez99 <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Dec 12, 12:53 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Since Philidor time, Taimanov must be the the most qualified
>> Philidor looks like Mozart, at least in profile. Smyslov was a
>> pianist, like Taimanov. Fischer went to the same American high school
>> as Barbara Streisand.
>>
>> The only classical music I have is a CD of 25 pop classical favorites--
>> including Walter Murphy's A Fifth of Beethoven, which is very good
>> piece IMO.
>>
>> RL
>
> Why must all the analogies be to classical artists? How about other
> genres? Some suggestions:
>
> Morphy -- Eddie Cochran
> Steinitz -- Muddy Waters
> Lasker -- Frank Zappa
> Capablanca -- Elvis
> Alekhine -- Jim Morrison
> Nimzovitch -- Captain Beefheart
> Tal -- Jimi Hendrix
> Judit Polgar -- Janis Joplin
> Bobby Fischer -- Michael Jackson
>
If we really must, how about this direction...
Morphy -- Plato
Steinitz -- Dante
Lasker -- Chaucer
Capablanca -- TS Elliot
Nimzovich -- Ezra Pound
Alekhine -- James Joyce
Fischer -- R Crumb
Susan Polgar -- Virginia Woolf
Karpov -- Hemingway
Kasparov -- Shakespeare
Kramnik -- Truman Capote
--
Cheers,
Rev. J.D. Walker, MsD, U.C.
"By the way, where is the Promised Analysis of the Mottershead
Report?"
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 10:49:34
From: raylopez99
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 12, 12:53 am, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> Since Philidor time, Taimanov must be the the most qualified
Philidor looks like Mozart, at least in profile. Smyslov was a
pianist, like Taimanov. Fischer went to the same American high school
as Barbara Streisand.
The only classical music I have is a CD of 25 pop classical favorites--
including Walter Murphy's A Fifth of Beethoven, which is very good
piece IMO.
RL
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 15:53:53
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 12, 4:33 pm, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> Were Fisher and Streisand at the high school at the same time ?
Streisand was born April 24, 1942, while Fischer was born ch 9,
1943, so it seems likely their times at that high school overlapped
some.
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 13:33:04
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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Were Fisher and Streisand at the high school at the same time ?
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 00:53:24
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 11, 8:24 am, "Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote:
> For Wlod, on his recent commentary here on the style of a player:
Thank you, Phil, how nice!
> When I asked k Taimanov to compare musical style with Great chess
> players, he replied:-
Since Philidor time, Taimanov must be the the most qualified
to make such a comparison. He was world's elite chess grandmaster,
he was a very good chess writer and theoretician; and on the other
hand he was a grandmaster piano pleyr (a grandpiano player :-). Thus
if I make any comments, I still keep in mind who Taimanov is. I wish
that k Taimanov would make his list of comparisons longer, to
include Morphy, Winawer, Zukertort (so poetic), Pillsbury,
Rubinstein(!!!)
and many others.
> Well, for me the resemblance between Capablanca and Mozart
> is absolutely evident.
Indeed, this is a common sentiment. I would compare also
Morphy to Mozart. It is interesting to remember that late Mozart
was very dramatic. But perhaps we can find drama in some of
the games of Morphy (for sure) and Capablanca too, as opposed
to pure cheerfulness.
> I would compare Lasker with Beethoven,
Yes and no. Both were complex and both varied,
playing both simple and grand themes. Beethoven had
certain tendency for overdramatizing (was it because
Beethoven was virtually deaf later in his life?), which
Lasker did not. I would compare Kasparov to Beethoven,
because both left so many different pieces of art,
executed in differnt styles.
> and Steinitz with Bach.
With all respect for Steinitz, I don't feel that
his play was musical. I see him more as
a boxer, fighting long fights, allowing his
opponent to attack him, etc. I see Winawer as a boxer too.
He would exchange a few punches in the beginning
(early opening), and then he would be on attack non-stop.
But if I had to find a musical analogy for Winawer, then
I would say Negro spirituals, with their incredible energy
and vitality (this comparison is a complement for Winawer
rather than for the Negro spirituals, despite the Winawer's
world class).
I better stop making more comments about Taimanov's
comparisons. I will just add that Kramnik's fluid but complex
game reminds me of jazz.
Thank you, Phil, regards,
Wlod
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Date: 12 Dec 2007 06:23:52
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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"Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:baf038f2-bee9-4982-a07d-2452801049b0@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 11, 8:24 am, "Chess One" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> For Wlod, on his recent commentary here on the style of a player:
>
> Thank you, Phil, how nice!
>
>> When I asked k Taimanov to compare musical style with Great chess
>> players, he replied:-
>
> Since Philidor time, Taimanov must be the the most qualified
> to make such a comparison. He was world's elite chess grandmaster,
> he was a very good chess writer and theoretician; and on the other
> hand he was a grandmaster piano pleyr (a grandpiano player :-). Thus
> if I make any comments, I still keep in mind who Taimanov is.
Ay - in the interview we asked him if his other career as a world class
pianist [with Lybov Bruk] was useful to him, after his 'disgrace' losing to
Fischer. He replied that it was not in that sense of finding work. Instead
he replied that chess provided him intellectual movement, but music was his
emotional or spiritual [the Russian phrase had both senses] movement and
connection.
In fact he also said that many young players [he means grandmasters] 'only'
have chess, and that this is very narrow, brittle level of engagement in the
world.
> I wish
> that k Taimanov would make his list of comparisons longer, to
> include Morphy, Winawer, Zukertort (so poetic), Pillsbury,
> Rubinstein(!!!)
> and many others.
>
>> Well, for me the resemblance between Capablanca and Mozart
>> is absolutely evident.
>
> Indeed, this is a common sentiment. I would compare also
> Morphy to Mozart. It is interesting to remember that late Mozart
> was very dramatic. But perhaps we can find drama in some of
> the games of Morphy (for sure) and Capablanca too, as opposed
> to pure cheerfulness.
Interesting. Perhaps Morphy should have the first claim on Mozart, as both
belonging to the 'Romantic' age, of which Capablanca was perhaps the last of
the old school, and the first of the new? There is something witty about
Mozart, which can also be deeply disturbing, as in the Requiem... as if the
mind plays with things a little beyond its control... From Eros to Thanatos,
Thanatos!
>> I would compare Lasker with Beethoven,
>
> Yes and no. Both were complex and both varied,
> playing both simple and grand themes. Beethoven had
> certain tendency for overdramatizing (was it because
> Beethoven was virtually deaf later in his life?), which
> Lasker did not. I would compare Kasparov to Beethoven,
> because both left so many different pieces of art,
> executed in differnt styles.
Was Beethoven the last of the truly symphonic composers? I mean, what to do
after Beethoven [I think Shostakovitch asked that question] - and
interestingly Maxim S thought much of Beethoven, 'incorporating' it, and MT
compared MS to GK
>> and Steinitz with Bach.
>
> With all respect for Steinitz, I don't feel that
> his play was musical. I see him more as
> a boxer, fighting long fights, allowing his
> opponent to attack him, etc. I see Winawer as a boxer too.
> He would exchange a few punches in the beginning
> (early opening), and then he would be on attack non-stop.
> But if I had to find a musical analogy for Winawer, then
> I would say Negro spirituals, with their incredible energy
> and vitality (this comparison is a complement for Winawer
> rather than for the Negro spirituals, despite the Winawer's
> world class).
>
> I better stop making more comments about Taimanov's
> comparisons. I will just add that Kramnik's fluid but complex
> game reminds me of jazz.
I was trying to work it the other way yesterday, thinking of Aaron Copeland
and Philip Glass, and which American players could be compared with them...
but maybe you hit on the right mode for Americans, and its less classical
music, more <grin >
> Thank you, Phil, regards,
Chess is a great game, ain't it? If you read what players write about
themselves, some are rather 'objective' and severe, and 'scientific', while
others utilise a military metaphor - but some players talk as though they
were composing the libretto for a ballet, and use the words of a
choreography.
Cordially, Phil Innes
> Wlod
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Date: 11 Dec 2007 21:54:13
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 11, 4:24 pm, "Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Alekhine with his wealth of ideas and sense of harmony is akin to
> Rachmaninoff.
Wagner, for me. (For political outlook and opportunism as well as
style).
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Date: 11 Dec 2007 21:52:43
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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Lasker with Beethoven doesn't seem right at all - at least to me.
Two composers spring to mind: Bruckner and Mahler.
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Date: 11 Dec 2007 08:52:33
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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On Dec 11, 4:24 pm, "Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Well, for me the resemblance between Capablanca and Mozart is absolutely
> evident. I would compare Lasker with Beethoven, and Steinitz with Bach.
> Alekhine with his wealth of ideas and sense of harmony is akin to
> Rachmaninoff. Smyslov's harmony is closer to that of Chaikovsky's. Fischer
> is as monumental as Liszt.
....
Great stuff!
The Liszt/Fischer one is really striking.
Capa/Mozart is the most obvious. What about Morphy - not Mozart again,
surely? It has to be a prodigy...
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Date: 11 Dec 2007 11:45:08
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: "Tal reminds me of Paganini"
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"Chess One" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> For Wlod, on his recent commentary here on the style of a player:
>
> When I asked k Taimanov to compare musical style with Great chess
> players, he replied:-
>
> Well, for me the resemblance between Capablanca and Mozart is absolutely
> evident.
Irrisitible, isn't it, to feel this is right, once you have read it.
> I would compare Lasker with Beethoven, and Steinitz with Bach.
> Alekhine with his wealth of ideas and sense of harmony is akin to
> Rachmaninoff.
I should add that the editorial team at chessville who put these questions
together, the publisher, Dr. Bill Hyde, Dr. Jens Madsen and myself, were
guessing who he would chose for himself - and I strongly thought Taimanov
would chose Rachmaninoff - [other facetious guessed included Jimmy Hendrix.]
> Smyslov's harmony is closer to that of Chaikovsky's.
So Taylor Kingston writes in another thread 'Time article' that [to use
current Russian spelling] Smyslov is often, falsely, considered 'defensive'.
and here is considerable support for another view. Indeed, both Tchaikovsky
and Rachmaninoff were extremely daring in what they attempted - IMO - and
the harmony Taimanov suggests is a strategic one in music, no? In other
words, a symphonic sense of a harmony as vast as the taiga.
> Fischer
> is as monumental as Liszt.
What a rekable comparison!
> Tal reminds me of Paganini - the same
> self-abandon and fatalism.
And that one, as rekably sad.
> Botvinnik is associated for me with Wagner.
> Karpov's chess is as simple and as complicated as Prokofiev's music.
Ha!
> Kasparov with his dynamic play brings to mind Shostakovich and his
> symphonies..."
Somewhere else - I'm not sure if we published it or not - I asked him why
Kasparov/Shostakovitch? And he replied, 'for complexity.'
> Of himself he said: "As to my style, by comparison to names of great
> composers I feel an involuntary certain shyness. But, probably, a parallel
> with creativity of Frederic Chopin is the closest."
Which has always been a somewhat enigmatic comment to me - and interesting
he should compare himself to a Pole, if MT had been a literat, I wonder if
he would have chosen Conrad?
> ---
>
> I have just sent recently-returned-from-Siberia Mickey Adams, a set of
> question, with the above as preamble, and with this one about himself:
>
> So! If Tony Miles was John Lennon [agree?]: Who is Mickey Adams?
O! Well... we could all guess.
Phil Innes
> Phil Innes
>
>
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