| |
Main
Date: 07 Oct 2008 02:39:57
From: Offramp
Subject: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
Anand finished sole last in the recent Cat XXII tournament in Bilbao.
In yesterday's London Times GM Ray Keene says this is the worst ever
placing by a current World Champion.
I suppose it is. I can't think of any that are worse. I thought
Spassky had at least one bad one, and I thought Petrosian did as
well.
Chessbase gives Anand's Elo performance for Bilbao as 2693. He scored
4/10, 2 losses and eight draws.
It is not a massive disaster, really, in my opinion. It was a very
strong tournament!
So what other bad results have current World Champ's had over the
years? Not necessarily LAST, just a really bad result.
|
|
| |
Date: 11 Oct 2008 18:42:28
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_R.?=
Subject: AW: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
Offramp wrote:
> Anand finished sole last in the recent Cat XXII tournament in Bilbao.
> In yesterday's London Times GM Ray Keene says this is the worst ever
> placing by a current World Champion.
> I suppose it is. I can't think of any that are worse. I thought
> Spassky had at least one bad one, and I thought Petrosian did as
> well.
> Chessbase gives Anand's Elo performance for Bilbao as 2693. He scored
> 4/10, 2 losses and eight draws.
Since the standard deviation of the rating is 200, there is nothing
particularly noteworthy about this result.
> It is not a massive disaster, really, in my opinion. It was a very
> strong tournament!
>
> So what other bad results have current World Champ's had over the
> years? Not necessarily LAST, just a really bad result.
|
| |
Date: 08 Oct 2008 09:57:36
From:
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
On Oct 7, 7:07=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 6:25=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 7, 5:50=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 7, 4:02=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 7, 9:31=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > > =A0 Christian Sanchez kindly supplied the following:
>
> > > > Petrosian-Spassky: April 1969.
> > > > Palma de Mallorca: November 1969.
>
> > > > =A0 Therefore Palma de Mallorca would be Spassky's worst as champ.
>
> > > Possibly.
>
> > > I have been unable to find the Palma crosstable, but as I recall it i=
t
> > > was a big event with a number of strong players.
This probably won't look right here, but here is the crosstable from
ChessBase:
Palma de Mallorca 1969
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 Larsen,Bent * =BD 1 0 0 1 0 1 =BD 1 =BD 1 =BD 1 1 1 1 1 12.0/17
2 Petrosian,Tigran V =BD * =BD 1 =BD 1 1 =BD =BD 1 =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD 1 1 =
=BD 11.5/17
3 Kortschnoj,Viktor 0 =BD * 1 =BD 1 1 =BD =BD =BD =BD 1 =BD =BD =BD 1 0 1 1=
0.5/17 86.50
4 Hort,Vlastimil 1 0 0 * =BD 1 =BD 1 =BD =BD =BD 0 1 =BD =BD 1 1 1 10.5/17 =
84.00
5 Spassky,Boris V 1 =BD =BD =BD * =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD 1=
=BD 1 10.0/17
6 Diez del Corral,Jesus 0 0 0 0 =BD * =BD 1 =BD 0 1 =BD 1 1 1 =BD 1 1 9.5/1=
7
7 Mecking,Henrique 1 0 0 =BD =BD =BD * 0 =BD 1 1 =BD =BD =BD 1 0 =BD 1 9.0/=
17 73.25
8 Panno,Oscar 0 =BD =BD 0 =BD 0 1 * 1 =BD =BD 1 =BD =BD =BD 0 1 1 9.0/17 71=
.00
9 Parma,Bruno =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD 0 * =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD =
=BD 1 8.5/17 70.25
10 Najdorf,Miguel 0 0 =BD =BD =BD 1 0 =BD =BD * =BD 1 =BD =BD =BD 1 =BD =BD=
8.5/17 68.00
11 Szabo,Laszlo =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD 0 0 =BD =BD =BD * =BD =BD 1 =BD 1 =BD 0=
8.0/17 67.25
12 Unzicker,Wolfgang 0 =BD 0 1 =BD =BD =BD 0 =BD 0 =BD * 1 =BD =BD =BD =BD =
1 8.0/17 64.00
13 Pomar Salamanca,Arturo =BD =BD =BD 0 =BD 0 =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD 0 * =BD 1=
=BD =BD =BD 7.5/17
14 Bobotsov,Milko G 0 =BD =BD =BD =BD 0 =BD =BD =BD =BD 0 =BD =BD * =BD 0 1=
0 6.5/17 55.75
15 Damjanovic,Mato 0 =BD =BD =BD =BD 0 0 =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD 0 =BD * =BD =
=BD =BD 6.5/17 54.25
16 Penrose,Jonathan 0 0 0 0 0 =BD 1 1 =BD 0 0 =BD =BD 1 =BD * =BD =BD 6.5/1=
7 50.00
17 Toran Albero,Roman 0 0 1 0 =BD 0 =BD 0 =BD =BD =BD =BD =BD 0 =BD =BD * =
=BD 6.0/17
18 Medina Garcia,Antonio Angel 0 =BD 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 =BD 1 0 =BD 1 =BD =BD =
=BD *
5.0/17
> > > Spassky finished third at Goteborg 1971, a small (12 player) and
> > > pretty weak
> > > event, (ratings: Spassky 2690, Hort 2600, Szabo 2510, Pomar 2500).
> > > Andersson (2480, this was where he made his GM title) and Hort tied
> > > for first.
>
> > > That might be a worse event than Palma, depending on how strong the
> > > field there was. =A0Third from a small, weak, event could be a worse
> > > result than fifth in a large, strong event.
True. My database doesn't have ratings or TPRs for Palma 1969 (FIDE
didn't start publishing ratings until the next year), but it does for
the other two relatively poor showings Spassky had as world champion.
At Moscow 1971 his TPR was 73 Elo points below his 2690 rating, while
at Gothenburg, even though he was just =BD-point behind the winners, his
TPR was 98 points below expected.
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 16:07:56
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
On Oct 7, 6:25=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 7, 5:50=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 7, 4:02=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 7, 9:31=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > =A0 Christian Sanchez kindly supplied the following:
>
> > > Petrosian-Spassky: April 1969.
> > > Palma de Mallorca: November 1969.
>
> > > =A0 Therefore Palma de Mallorca would be Spassky's worst as champ.
>
> > Possibly.
>
> > I have been unable to find the Palma crosstable, but as I recall it it
> > was a big event with a number of strong players.
>
> > Spassky finished third at Goteborg 1971, a small (12 player) and
> > pretty weak
> > event, (ratings: Spassky 2690, Hort 2600, Szabo 2510, Pomar 2500).
> > Andersson (2480, this was where he made his GM title) and Hort tied
> > for first.
>
> > That might be a worse event than Palma, depending on how strong the
> > field there was. =A0Third from a small, weak, event could be a worse
> > result than fifth in a large, strong event.
>
> =A0 A reasonable argument. Checking again, though, I noticed a
> tournament I somehow overlooked before, Moscow 1971, in which Spassky
> scored +4 -1 =3D11 to finish =3D6th=3D7th, behind Karpov, Stein, Smyslov,
> Tukmakov, and Petrosian. Perhaps that might be his worst? It certainly
> was in terms of placement.
Yes, but if I recall correctly that was a very, very, strong event.
It was partly on the basis of that result that people thought Tukmakov
was destined to be a world championship candidate, at the least.
William Hyde
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 15:25:11
From:
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
On Oct 7, 5:50=A0pm, William Hyde <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 4:02=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Oct 7, 9:31=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > =A0 Christian Sanchez kindly supplied the following:
>
> > Petrosian-Spassky: April 1969.
> > Palma de Mallorca: November 1969.
>
> > =A0 Therefore Palma de Mallorca would be Spassky's worst as champ.
>
> Possibly.
>
> I have been unable to find the Palma crosstable, but as I recall it it
> was a big event with a number of strong players.
>
> Spassky finished third at Goteborg 1971, a small (12 player) and
> pretty weak
> event, (ratings: Spassky 2690, Hort 2600, Szabo 2510, Pomar 2500).
> Andersson (2480, this was where he made his GM title) and Hort tied
> for first.
>
> That might be a worse event than Palma, depending on how strong the
> field there was. =A0Third from a small, weak, event could be a worse
> result than fifth in a large, strong event.
A reasonable argument. Checking again, though, I noticed a
tournament I somehow overlooked before, Moscow 1971, in which Spassky
scored +4 -1 =3D11 to finish =3D6th=3D7th, behind Karpov, Stein, Smyslov,
Tukmakov, and Petrosian. Perhaps that might be his worst? It certainly
was in terms of placement.
An interesting thing about Spassky's tournament record as champion
was his long undefeated streak. In eight events 1969-1971 he scored+40
-0 =3D48. In his prime he seems to have been just as much a "drawing
master" as Petrosian ever was. The book "World Chess Champions,"
edited by Winter, gives career W/L/D percentages for all champions,
counting both tournament and match games thru 1979. The drawing
percentages make an interesting comparison:
Steinitz: 20.13%
Lasker: 31.57%
Capablanca: 42.05%
Alekhine: 31.62%
Euwe: 33.32%
Botvinnik: 38.91%
Smyslov: 50.73%
Tal: 43.61%
Petrosian: 55.22%
Spassky: 52.53%
Fischer: 32.27%
Karpov: 49.16%
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 14:50:34
From: William Hyde
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
On Oct 7, 4:02=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 7, 9:31=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> =A0 Christian Sanchez kindly supplied the following:
>
> Petrosian-Spassky: April 1969.
> Palma de Mallorca: November 1969.
>
> =A0 Therefore Palma de Mallorca would be Spassky's worst as champ.
Possibly.
I have been unable to find the Palma crosstable, but as I recall it it
was a big event with a number of strong players.
Spassky finished third at Goteborg 1971, a small (12 player) and
pretty weak
event, (ratings: Spassky 2690, Hort 2600, Szabo 2510, Pomar 2500).
Andersson (2480, this was where he made his GM title) and Hort tied
for first.
That might be a worse event than Palma, depending on how strong the
field there was. Third from a small, weak, event could be a worse
result than fifth in a large, strong event.
William Hyde
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 14:17:03
From:
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
On Oct 7, 4:26=A0pm, SBD <[email protected] > wrote:
> It may sound like a silly question, but what are the "normal"
> performances by WC in post-WC tournaments?
Interesting question.
> I ask this because I would expect a natural "sink" in one's results:
> while you were playing and then recovering from the WC, others were
> analyzing the holes in your play, to say nothing of the emotional let-
> down (one rather expects someone with Spassky's temperament to do
> badly "post-partum" in a sort of depression that naturally follows any
> great event).
Here's a list (I hope accurate) of what some world champs have done
in their first tournament after winning the title:
Steinitz: 3rd (of 13) at Paris 1867 (I was incorrect to say =3D2nd-3rd
earlier. This was an event where draws did not count, therefore
Winawer's +19 -4 =3D1 put him ahead of Steinitz's +18 -3 =3D3. And again,
I'm dating this from 1866, not 1886. Steinitz played no tournaments as
world champion after 1886.)
Lasker: 3rd (of 22) at Hastings 1895, +14 -4 =3D3. Lasker was still
recuperating from a near-fatal bout with typhoid.
Capablanca: 1st (of 16) at London 1922, +11 -0 =3D4.
Alekhine (1st term as champ): 1st (of 10) at Bradley Beach 1929, +8
-0 =3D1.
Euwe: 1st (of 4) at Leiden, +2 -0 =3D1
Alekhine (2nd term): 1st (of 16) at Montevideo 1938, +11 -0 =3D4
Botvinnik (1st term): 5th (of 18) at Moscow 1951 (19th USSR Ch), +6
-3 =3D8
Botvinnik (2nd term): 1st (of 6) at Wageningen 1958, +3 -0 =3D2
Botvinnik (3rd term): =3D1st-2nd (of 10) at Hastings 1961-62, +7 -0
=3D2
Smyslov: played 1st board for USSR in European Team Ch, Vienna 1957,
scoring +2 -1 =3D3
Tal: 1st (of 12) at Stockholm 1960-61, +8 -0 =3D3
Petrosian: =3D1st-2nd (of 8) at Los Angeles 1963, +4 -1 =3D9
That's eight firsts, two thirds, one fifth, and one we can't really
count (Smyslov). And seven undefeated performances among them. So a
post-title letdown does not seem to be the norm. Rather, the new champ
generally ratifies his status as #1.
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 13:26:18
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
It may sound like a silly question, but what are the "normal"
performances by WC in post-WC tournaments?
I ask this because I would expect a natural "sink" in one's results:
while you were playing and then recovering from the WC, others were
analyzing the holes in your play, to say nothing of the emotional let-
down (one rather expects someone with Spassky's temperament to do
badly "post-partum" in a sort of depression that naturally follows any
great event).
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 13:02:27
From:
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
On Oct 7, 9:31=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 7, 5:39=A0am, Offramp <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Anand finished sole last in the recent Cat XXII tournament in Bilbao.
> > In yesterday's London Times GM Ray Keene says this is the worst ever
> > placing by a current World Champion.
> > I suppose it is. I can't think of any that are worse. I thought
> > Spassky had at least one bad one, and I thought =A0Petrosian did as
> > well.
> > Chessbase gives Anand's Elo performance for Bilbao as 2693. He scored
> > 4/10, 2 losses and eight draws.
> > It is not a massive disaster, really, in my opinion. It was a very
> > strong tournament!
>
> > So what other bad results have current World Champ's had over the
> > years? Not necessarily LAST, just a really bad result.
>
> =A0 I take it by "current" you mean a reigning world champion? Not, say,
> an ex-champ having a bad result due to age late in his life? If so, I
> might nominate some of Alekhine's results in minor Spanish tournaments
> in 1945. While he finished no worse than =3D2nd-3rd in these, the
> opposition was poor enough that his results indidcated sharp decline.
> The Alekhine of 1931 would have had a clean score against this level
> of opposition, but in 1945 he has such scores as +6 -2 =3D1 and +4 -1
> =3D3.
> =A0 Here's a quick list of probable worsts by some reigning champions:
>
> =A0Steinitz: =3D2nd-3rd at Paris 1867, tied with Winawer behind Kolisch.
> For this I'm dating Steinitz's reign from the 1866 Anderssen match
> rather than the 1886 Zukertort match. After beating Zukertort,
> Steinitz played in no tournaments at all until after he lost the title
> in 1894.
> =A0 Lasker: =3D2nd-3rd at Cambridge Springs 1904, tied with Janowski
> behind Marshall
I should probably amend this: Lasker was sole 3rd at Hastings 1895,
behind Pillsbury and Chigorin. Aside from that and Cambridge Springs,
he came 1st in every tournament he played in as world champion.
> =A0 Capablanca: 3rd at Moscow 1925, behind Bogolyubov and Lasker
> =A0 Alekhine: If we discount 1945, about the worst he had was AVRO 1938,
> =3D4th-6th with Euwe and Reshevsky, behind Keres, Fine and Botvinnik.
> =A0 Euwe: =3D3rd-5th at Nottingham 1936, tied with Fine and Reshevsky,
> behind Capablanca and Botvinnik.
> =A0 Botvinnik: probably his 5th place in the 1951 USSR Championship,
> behind Keres, Geller, Petrosian, and Smyslov.
> =A0 Petrosian: =3D9th-12th at Moscow 1967, tied with Geller, Najdorf and
> Keres, behind Stein, Smyslov, Gipslis, Bobotsov, Tal, Portisch,
> Bronstein and Spassky.
> =A0 Spassky: perhaps his 5th place at Palma de Mallorca 1969, behind
> Larsen, Petrosian, Korchnoi and Hort, but I'm not sure if this was
> played before or after the match in which he won the title.
Christian Sanchez kindly supplied the following:
Petrosian-Spassky: April 1969.
Palma de Mallorca: November 1969.
Therefore Palma de Mallorca would be Spassky's worst as champ.
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 12:48:59
From: Chvsanchez
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
> =A0 Spassky: perhaps his 5th place at Palma de Mallorca 1969, behind
> Larsen, Petrosian, Korchnoi and Hort, but I'm not sure if this was
> played before or after the match in which he won the title.
Petrosian-Spassky: April 1969.
Palma de Mallorca: November 1969.
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 06:31:31
From:
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
On Oct 7, 5:39=A0am, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> Anand finished sole last in the recent Cat XXII tournament in Bilbao.
> In yesterday's London Times GM Ray Keene says this is the worst ever
> placing by a current World Champion.
> I suppose it is. I can't think of any that are worse. I thought
> Spassky had at least one bad one, and I thought =A0Petrosian did as
> well.
> Chessbase gives Anand's Elo performance for Bilbao as 2693. He scored
> 4/10, 2 losses and eight draws.
> It is not a massive disaster, really, in my opinion. It was a very
> strong tournament!
>
> So what other bad results have current World Champ's had over the
> years? Not necessarily LAST, just a really bad result.
I take it by "current" you mean a reigning world champion? Not, say,
an ex-champ having a bad result due to age late in his life? If so, I
might nominate some of Alekhine's results in minor Spanish tournaments
in 1945. While he finished no worse than =3D2nd-3rd in these, the
opposition was poor enough that his results indidcated sharp decline.
The Alekhine of 1931 would have had a clean score against this level
of opposition, but in 1945 he has such scores as +6 -2 =3D1 and +4 -1
=3D3.
Here's a quick list of probable worsts by some reigning champions:
Steinitz: =3D2nd-3rd at Paris 1867, tied with Winawer behind Kolisch.
For this I'm dating Steinitz's reign from the 1866 Anderssen match
rather than the 1886 Zukertort match. After beating Zukertort,
Steinitz played in no tournaments at all until after he lost the title
in 1894.
Lasker: =3D2nd-3rd at Cambridge Springs 1904, tied with Janowski
behind Marshall
Capablanca: 3rd at Moscow 1925, behind Bogolyubov and Lasker
Alekhine: If we discount 1945, about the worst he had was AVRO 1938,
=3D4th-6th with Euwe and Reshevsky, behind Keres, Fine and Botvinnik.
Euwe: =3D3rd-5th at Nottingham 1936, tied with Fine and Reshevsky,
behind Capablanca and Botvinnik.
Botvinnik: probably his 5th place in the 1951 USSR Championship,
behind Keres, Geller, Petrosian, and Smyslov.
Petrosian: =3D9th-12th at Moscow 1967, tied with Geller, Najdorf and
Keres, behind Stein, Smyslov, Gipslis, Bobotsov, Tal, Portisch,
Bronstein and Spassky.
Spassky: perhaps his 5th place at Palma de Mallorca 1969, behind
Larsen, Petrosian, Korchnoi and Hort, but I'm not sure if this was
played before or after the match in which he won the title.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2008 12:24:38
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: Worst result in a tournament by a current World Chess Champion
|
I wonder how hard Anad tried ?
I think Anad and Kar play this Sat ?
|
|
